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UltraManDan

Full carbon with only $1500? Good luck!

fixedweasel

Chinese Carbon. Been riding/racing them for over 10 years now. All have been fantastic and proven themselves year after year. I have four framesets, two road and two track. One track is set up as a fixed trainer and the other to race. The road frameset was bought for $370* and it easily rivaled my Cervelo S3. That one was built up with Red and a 50mm Chinese wheelset. I run a Zipp disc and a Zipp 808 on my track bike but have 3 Chinese carbon wheelsets (2 clincher/1 tubular) that have also been outstanding. Chinese carbon has proven itself over and over, again and again. And, the folks who actually complain about it, are usually the same folks that are riding the same branded framesets minus a ton of money in their wallets. I also have a set of Chinese 3T Scatto Track Bars that appear to be identical to my Original 3T branded bars that I used to run. If you go this route, you can run a full carbon set-up for under 1.5k.** Give yourself a hair more wiggle room with the green and you'll be able to run a Chinese carbon tubular disc for the rear.




*the second one, i haggled the seller down to $300 shipped
**including chainset and ti(y)res if you go with the 88mm Carbon Tubulars

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TejanoTrackie 

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fixedweasel

Been wrenching on bikes for decades and have my own shop. Got news for you. Almost everything (>95% at least*) out there is from either China or Taiwan. That includes carbon track framesets. A name plastered on the side makes it no more real than the counterparts made in the same factories side by side. What the folks say above is true. If you want the sticker with the name of the bike on the downtube, you are going to have to pay for it. There's no way around that.






*most likely the percentage is even much higher than that but i'm being generous

taras0000

Buy something that's 10 years old and used. That will fit in your budget. Seriously. I'm not trying to be condescending. I think your aspirations are a little out of touch with reality unless you go the used route.

TimothyH

Below 15 lb for <$1500 probably isn't realistic but full carbon for that price is absolutely doable. Here are a few starters.

Ribble Eliminator - Miche drivetrain, Mavic wheels, Deda cockpit - $1397 plus import duties for anything over $800. Less expensive component mix is available.
https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-eliminator/

Planet X Pro Carbon Track frameset - XS, S and M only - Black only - $487
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/FRPXPC...track-frameset

Planet X Pro Carbon Track frameset - other sizes and colors $608
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/FRPXPC...track-frameset

None of these will have provisions for brakes and are probably limited to 23 mm tires but the OP did specifically state that he wanted a track build.

I think that Ribble bike looks badass and was thinking of buying one just to ride the rail trails and get certified at the local Velodrome here in Atlanta.




-Tim-

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REDMASTA

Yeah most aluminum and cf frames are now made in Asia. Good or bad that's just the way it is now. One thing a sticker from a reputable company provides over an unknown blank from eBay is buyer confidence. Said company has at least invested in enough R&D to back it with their reputation. I was skeptical about cf mtn bike frames but after watching some of the Santa Cruz testing I would confidently ride one. Don't know if I'd risk life and limb on an eBay frame because the seller claims it's from the "same" factory. There are so many factories over there who really knows what the deal is, up to the buyer to make the final decision.

fixedweasel

I have too much experience as well as years and years of hard racing/training on these framesets to argue with someone. Objective research will also back up the quality of these framesets. BTW, not most framesets are made in Asia, more like, almost every single one as far as percentages go. When you do something over and over again, over decades of time, you have a tendency to get very very good at it.* As an example, my Brother was the Head Mechanic for Robbie Ventura's (USPS) Trek store here.** I went to visit him one day and he waved me on to the back of the shop where he showed me a pile of Trek's highest end frames thrown into the corner. He then showed me all the cracks in the head tubes/downtubes. He was to cut them up as not to be re-used. Take a wild guess where all those frames were made. Yup............in the good 'ol USA. I asked him about all of the other mid/high end framesets that were made in Asia, He said not a one had come back for warranty in regards to failure. Go figure. Also, if you don't want any of that Chinese crap, stay away from the Planet Bike and Ribble. You know where they're made right?


*would you go to a Neurosurgeon for surgery who did the procedure once every 6 months or once a day?
**this was back around 2010 or so

REDMASTA

fixedweasel

Actually, I think you completely missed the point. The Chinese have been laying up carbon framesets for decades. I have 4 framesets from them right now ranging from $300*/$370/$525/$545 with the latter 2 being the two track framesets. These are the "cheapest" one's you can find on eBay. These are made in the same factories side by side than Trek/Giant/Fuji/Felt/Jamis/Kestrel/Specialized/and even some Colnago's. Hell, even Performance/Nashbar/Bikes Direct warranty their framesets and they are the same exact one's on eBay albeit branded. What you don't understand is that the quality is so good right now, that everything is solid/excellent. We are no longer in testing phases for material, lay up and resins. No longer in testing periods for joinery. They've been doing this for a very long time and have it nailed. They know very well what works and what does not. I also don't think you understand the incredible/tremendous mark up on these "branded" framesets from reputable companies.** If the Chinese started putting out crap unbranded framesets we would all know about it through research and Forum complaints. Money is money and you don't want to lose customers no matter what. The competition is so tight there that a company putting out crap would not be around very long. And again, through objective research you'd find all of this to be true. I was just trying to give a well rounded/experienced answer with multiple facts,*** but do what you'd like. It's your wallet.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ewwhite/7864407080/




*that one was bartered down from $370
**try explaining that one to the folks that bought those Trek's that cracked/failed that were made in the U.S.
***and i've ridden carbon trek's/giants/cervelos

REDMASTA

SquidPuppet

@TimothyH posted a video of a fellow that cut a CF Bianchi open. It was pretty scary and ugly inside there. I'm not anti-CF, I just remember that was a very interesting video.

fixedweasel

You can't argue/debate unless you research your facts. We now live in a society where facts are not relevant and it shows here as well.* We are on here to help others who have questions because they may not have the experience or knowledge in a specific area. As responders to these questions we should answer in the most detailed way in regards to evidence base, experience, critical thinking, real world use, and facts. Otherwise we are serving an injustice to the person asking the question. They would/could be making a decision that is slanted, biased or flat out, in some instances, a bad choice. I would never respond without fact or experience and have already shown above, multiple examples of both. Let him get the facts and make the decision for himself. I'm an old man and have been around too long to debate someone who is not reasonable to the facts. It's just not worth it. Objective research my friend. It will be your friend and will help you along considerably in other discussions/debates.




*how much experience do you have in this area? how many carbon Chinese framesets have you ridden long term over the years vs. how many multiple carbon "branded" framesets you've ridden over the years? how extensively have you researched Chinese carbon framesets vs. "branded" framesets? Do you actually believe Performance/Nashbar/Bikes Direct framesets are not made in the same factories? Do you actually believe that other "branded" companies are not an extension of this as well? Break free of the bubble.

TimothyH

Luescher Technic - He runs a CF repair facility out of Australia.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY9...4lLOHpb_zbIedQ

He has also cut up some Chicarb frames which were impressively clean. His Chinese carbon vs ENVE wheel cut up was eye opening. I'm not recommending Chicarb. There are some impressively clean brand names too.

I think there are Chinese brands which have been around long enough to build up reputations, good bad or otherwise. Several can be easily researched and there are enough guys running Hongfu and Denfu frames for example to be able to get a realistic picture of product quality and customer service. I use these two brands only as an example.

The whole tangential argument about chicarb vs brand name is interesting in terms of the topic of this post. The OP could probably get something shipped from Ali Babba for $450 if he wanted to go that route and then sub $1500 is certainly doable, if not sub 15 lb.


-Tim-

REDMASTA

Thanks for the link to that YouTube channel, very informative. Ended up stumbling across this video with the same guy. I don't know what to think anymore. Seems like anything coming out of those factories, even the better ones is a crap shoot. Was looking to replace my Cannondale F1 with a cf offering from Santa Cruz but now I'm not sure.

.

ptempel

^^ That's one of the best videos that cycling maven did, IMO. A lot of great info there. Will have to check out his other videos that Tim linked to above. FWIW, the Planet X Pro track bike is a little under $1100 and looks decent. Also leaves some $$ for a wheel upgrade. They claim that its a hair under 15 lbs but know knows. My only minor beef with Planet X is that I recall not liking the geometry on one or two of their road framesets. No idea about their track bike so definately compare the geo with other bikes as well.

TimothyH

His goofyness is great, innit?

Your comments are one of the reasons why I went with Niner for my gravel bike. I'm not shilling for Niner. Don't get me wrong. It was hugely expensive, and last year's models are on clearance for $600 off. But they build the gravel and CX bikes to mountain bike specs. The geometry is gravel/CX/road but the layup is like an MTB. That makes it heavier, but the tradeoff is a certain amount of confidence. In rough conditions I'll ride a bit heavier bike anyday if it means confidence that it is significantly less likely to fail.

Also keep in mind that MTB carbon layups and the specifications behind how they are to be built and tested are very different from road bikes. I would not hesitate to get a carbon MTB from a company like Pivot or Santa Cruz or similar where I would have to think about it for a road bike.

I think the best we can all do is get the best warranty we can afford and then ride the crap out of it. Expectations should be different when buying a $400 Dengfu frame vs a $2300 Niner. I expect to throw a Dengfu frame in the garbage if it breaks. I expect a generous crash replacement and good warranty support from an expensive brand name like Sana Cruz.

Back to the OP's original query, I don't think expectations should be high for service life and customer support for an $1200 bike which weighs 15 lb and it ridden in anger on the track. You ain't handing down a planet X track bike to your grand kids.


-Tim-

bbattle

The biggest difference between the frames made anywhere is quality control. Some of these Asian companies have zero qc and their production is all about cutting costs so they can undercut the competition. Frame might be awesome, might be a death trap. Taiwan has been making world class bicycles for decades; PRC just getting there; mostly from Taiwanese companies outsourcing to the mainland.

herbarium

I have a Cannondale CAAD 5 build at about 14.5 lbs that I will be posting about soon with the specs.

Here are my thoughts on research I have done on the lightest build I could:

1. Get a Argon 18 Electron frame and fork - in medium size it weighs 1900 grams - $1,000
2. Get a pair of Wabi sub-15 wheels or Chinese carbon wheels (on DHGate or Alibaba) - about 1500 grams - $300

That equals 3400 grams, or 7.5 lbs, and are the most important weight saving factors and the most expensive. You can figure it out for the rest of parts for the money and as long as you don't put on a boat anchor you will be under 15 lbs.

TMonk

China Carbon seems to have a proliferation among the track community here as well.
(Competitive) Road, not so much.

Does it matter? IDK.
Would I use a china carb frameset or wheelset? On the track, yes, on the road, probably not.
Is my decision influenced by empirical (and partially anecdotal) evidence? Yes.

Another thing to note is that trackies tend to be "gearheads" more often than competitive road racers and more likely to use experimental equipment.

Again: Does it matter? IDK, probably not. I think that the wear and tear associated with the road/street probably does warrant additional vigilance however.

Broctoon

You'd certainly have a good start with that frame and wheels. But the original spec in this thread was sub-15 lb. for under $1500.

You're only leaving 200 bucks for everything else--tires, stem & handlebar, seat & post, pedals, crank, BB, chain, and cog. If a guy has some of that stuff already lying around, it's feasible. But to buy even cheap parts, I think you'd go over budget by at least $100, and cheap parts would quickly fill up the remaining 7.5 lbs. Mid-grade stuff could keep the final weight under 15 lbs., but might take the total price above 1800-ish. Of course, this all depends on how good you are at finding discounts/clearance items. It also depends on whether you care only about weight and price, or whether aesthetics, comfort, and durability are also important.