Unca_Sam

My Caveat Emptor sense is tingling for this Brooks Swift listed online. I know cudak888 and rhm may be able to shed some additional light on the provenance of this saddle.

Is there an explanation for these variances? The badge looks like a 1990's badge, which matches the introduction of the swift, if I'm remembering my accumulated lore correctly.

I also think it's unlikely that this is a counterfeit. It's been covered multiple times in this subforum, but there's not really much money to be made in counterfeit vintage bike parts.


Badge is missing \"England" under Brooks name.

No stamping on cantle plate.

Rail sticker advertising titanium

Brooks stamp, no questions there.

Unca_Sam

I'll add that the saddle is in the US, not Eastern Europe or Shanghai.

pcb 

I'm in no way a Brooks expert, but the highest degree of weirdness to my eyes is I don't see a date stamp in the leather underneath the saddle. I haven't had a modern-ish Brooks that didn't have that. Haven't had a Swift in-house for a few years at least, but unless the experts know that Swifts for some reason didn't have the date stamp, that's a red flag to me.

The sticker looks kinda cheap and un-Brookslike, but I don't think I've ever bought a brand-new Brooks with Ti rails, so all I can say is the sticker looks a little incongruous.

I last Swift I had was Ti-railed, though, and I don't remember the rails being that dark/black. Dark gray, not black. But that could just be a photographic/exposure/light-balance thing.

So I'm scratching my chin, stroking my beard, going "Hmmmmm, yeah, I dunno...."

nlerner

I just checked and have two Swifts on bikes without "Made in England" on the badge:



One is Ti railed, the other cromo.

pcb 

Do they both have date stamps underneath?

Oooh! Do they both have bag mounts? The one in question doesn't. Were Ti Swifts available either way?

Unca_Sam

That style is in line with current production badges. Just "Brooks", embossed, with intertwined o's. Over at the headbadge, maybe only referring to badges on the ubiquitous B17, the badge is like the 1990 style when Brooks was owned by Sturmey Archer (??), flat, sans serif font without intertwined o's.

nlerner

I actually have another Ti Swift on the shelf without bag mounts, so seems they did come in both varieties (though this one has "England" on the badge).

Unca_Sam

I just looked at another example that has a badge that looks like Neil's, and there's no stamp on the cantle. Maybe it's just a transition after the SA/Brooks bankruptcy?

clubman 

I've got a Ti-Swift, no England, no bag loops, no date stamp. I own over a dozen Brooks going back to the 70's, none of which are dated. Maybe the colonies didn't deserve them.

pcb 

My hazy recollection is there were 4 date markings;

1. None. OK, so there were 3 date markings, but early saddles were unmarked, and by the '70s they were:
2. Stamped on the cantle, which lasted for quite some time, when it changed to:
3. Ink stampings on the underside of the leather, which don't have a recognizable formate, can no longer be deciphered by Brooks (paperwork/workers who knew gone), and can fade or rub off with use. After which:
4. Date code stamped into the bottom of the leather, last two digits of mfr on either side of an alphabetic character corresponding to the month of production. I've gotten both a '99 Team Pro and a '19 NOS B17 recently, both using that mark.

When I first commented, I had forgotten about the inked stamp, and I don't know when that was phased out in favor of the mechanical stamps. So maybe this Swift had the inked markings, and either they've faded, or the photo isn't sharp enough to show them.

'99 Team Pro, "L" maybe for December?

[

[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51016532363_432785c946_b.jpg



'79 Team Pro, "B" for Feb? This puppy has obvs seen better days.....

pcb 

Any date markings underneath, anywhere?

Unca_Sam

I'd appreciate (and maybe future scroungers) if you posted a picture or two.

clubman 

The Swift and most others are mounted on bikes but I'd be happy to takes pics as best I can. Give me time.

nlerner

Here's what's underneath:


O C 1? Unfortunately, they didn't include the decoder ring. To confuse matters more, here's the underside of a Swift with chrome rails and bag loops that my wife bought for me around 5 years ago. Sorry the stamp is hard to see, but it's 1 L 1. I have no idea if that's at all associated with a date code. On both of these, the cantle plate only has Made in England stamped.

Unca_Sam

That looks quite like the saddle I'm following: Darker titanium finish, and no obvious "Made in England" on the cantle plate. The biggest difference is the date code and "England" on the badge.
i asked the seller for any images of the England branding available. I'll update if i get something.

pcb 

Thanks for checking and shooting/posting!

Digits are last two digits of year built, with the alphabetic character in-between denoting the month of production. [joke] I already said this, Neil! Pay attention!!!![/joke]

"0C1" = March 2001
"1L1" = Dec 2011

Brooks stopped stamping the cantle plate more than 20yrs ago, since I've got one with a '99 stamp. Unless Doc and Marty did something with the DeLorean, then erased my memories, I haven't been to 2099 yet.

I guess the new touchstone is Rick and Morty. I haven't gone through a portal to 2099 yet, unless I did but Rick erased my memory when I got back.

Oh, and also note the rails are dark gray, not black.

nlerner

Has it been 10 years since my wife bought that for me (my birthday is in April)?! And it's still new-in-box?! I hope she's not reading this forum.

pcb 

Just tell her how much more it's worth now. It's an investment you can also put your rear end on.

Sonomike

So I just picked up this Swift saddle with the dark titanium rails NOS on ebay. Still in the box which says Brooks a Sturmey Archer company which dates it before 1999. It's a honey Swift exactly like the one you have except never used. Just like yours the sticker says Annealed Titanium Rails and they are almost black. It is stamped Made In England, you just have to look for it. Also has 3 numbers in the leather.

Chombi1 

The Ti rails and cantle on my Brooks Pro seeks to be painted black.
Definitely Ti as it is non-magnetic and much lighter than my steel railed Pros....