mstateglfr 

https://cyclingtips.com/2022/10/kask...test-and-mips/

Kask claims testing shows MIPS isn't beneficial. It also isn't harmful.
This is news because it was just opinion before.

Using a different head composition for testing changes results. <--- least surprising observation ever.

urbanknight

Interesting. I admit to hurriedly skimming the article, but didn't see any mention of Kask testing any other brands of helmets for a side-by-side comparison. Maybe the MIPS equipped helmets would mostly score significantly below 0.39, or maybe the would score significantly higher than 0.39, or maybe even they would come in right around 0.39 and support Kask's claims.

Maelochs

The article said Kask tested the competition but wouldn't reveal the results, which indeed, might be better than Kask in Kask's tests.

Me, I am just excited to see another helmet thread.

znomit

Greasy haired Italians don't need MIPS. Bald Americans (and Kiwis) do.

Sy Reene

This story seems a bit late...
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...ding-mips.html

eduskator

A helmet thread is better than a Shimano VS SRAM or Tubeless thread, that's for sure! Interesting article.

I don't agree on the ''MIPS helmets are less comfortable'' argument though. I have 3 helmets, 2 MIPS and one regular, and I don't see any difference.

That article makes me wonder if POC's SPIN technology is as useless according to this test.

mstateglfr 

I get your joking reference, but it isnt 'another helmet thread'. Its an article about the progress of cycling safety and a peek at what is coming.

Bob Ross

?!?! There was an article titled MIPS and Rotational Energy Management that appeared on the Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute's website at least as far back as 2019, and quite possibly earlier, that had already come to the same conclusion via well-conducted peer-reviewed research.

mstateglfr 

Which headform was used in that test- was it the Hybrid III or the newer EN960? I will guess its the Hybrid III due to the article's age. The CT article focuses on the negatives of the Hybrid III compared to this new headform. So yeah, it was opinion before since the new headform offers measured results that werent available before.

urbanknight

I still can't find that. I see where they didn't provide the HIC scores for their own helmets and only mentioned the BrIC, but not where they said they did anything at all with any other helmets. I would love to see a side-by-side comparison using the new headform. Heck, there are a few models out there that have pre-MIP and MIP versions. That would be the definitive test if you ask me.

Maelochs

"If Kask’s WG11 protocol generates more realistic test results, that’s an achievement that should be universally lauded. However, those sorts of tests are also only genuinely useful to consumers in context, which is why third-party data such as from Virginia Tech has become so powerful in recent years. In other words, it’s great that Kask’s helmets perform well according to WG11. But how does Giro do, or Bontrager, or Bell, or Specialized, and so on? Kask likely has conducted those benchmark tests, but the company declined to confirm as such or provide any data."

"But there’s still that big yellow elephant in the room.

"Let’s take all of Kask’s claims at face value for a moment here, that a dedicated low-friction liner really isn’t as critical to brain injury protection as we’ve been led to believe for the last ten years. However, how would MIPS-equipped helmets perform on average compared to helmets without MIPS-like features using that same WG11 protocol? After all, the ultimate goal with cycling helmets isn’t to just pass some test, it’s to ace them with as wide a margin as possible. Put another way, it’s great that Kask’s helmets do so well in the WG11 rotational impact test protocol without any sort of dedicated low-friction liner – but would they do even better if they had them?

"That is something I asked Kask directly, and while one might rightfully assume the company has conducted those benchmark tests, Kask wasn’t able to provide that answer.

“Regarding the performance of MIPS if tested with an EN 960 headform, I cannot answer that question,” Viano told me. “You should ask MIPS representatives directly.”"

Many possible interpretations of everything all the time.

chaadster

“If you change the game, we’re just as good.”

Very weak, lame-ass sauce from Kask, and a monumental waste of time because they’re not moving standards of safety forward. That’s why Kask don’t propose a new calibration of the AIS scale, because they’re only playing catch-up to existing standards, not improving helmet efficacy.

And call me ethnocentric, but Kask didn’t even have anything to say about the NOCSAE headform which Virginia Tech uses?

I’m calling it: this is a dead-end for Kask.

For them to push for better, more accurate testing is great, but to use it to say their current tech is good enough is a *huge* fail. Leaders seek solutions, losers seek excuses.

Maelochs

Ummm .... Kask is essentially saying that No One is moving helmet tech forward, just a few manufacturers are moving helmet-tech Hype further. They are saying their stuff is as good as everyone else's as good as the best of the rest. Not seeing where being one of the best is such a bad thing.

Wasn't it Specialized who did all those hyperbolic announcement about changing cycling forever .... to introduce their "wave-form" helmet technology which has pretty much had no impact .... yes, that was a pun, deal with it.

Yeah ... I guess neither MIPS nor "wave-form" has changed all of cycling forever... and apparently Both were 99 percent hype and one percent more hype .... so whatever. Kask doesn't need to improve "helmet efficacy" if their stuff is already as good as it gets. All their new ad campaign does is to show, through testing, that indeed, their helmets are every bit as good as what everyone thought was "The Best."

Basically No One has improved "helmet efficacy." Kask has improved helmet advertising honesty.

Whatever. I only wear a helmet on group rides when it is required by group mandate, or when riding off-road, when I wear a Bell .... non-Mips, non-wave-form, possibly not even tested beyond the basic tests all helmets pass. To me, all these people buying $400 helmets because of ad campaigns ... are happy, so let them buy what they want.

None of those helmets are worth much in high-speed crashes anyway. They are good for, basically, preventing serious cuts and abrasions, so you can limp your concussed butt back home, whereas if you got all gashed, due to the blood (scalp wounds bleed a Lot) you probably would have to call Uber.

urbanknight

OK I see what you're referencing, but it seems to be pure conjecture on the writer's part and nothing more. If Kask hasn't tested the competition, then they simply haven't and probably should so they can put their money where their mouth is. If the HAVE tested them, refusing to reveal the results is highly suspect. I would wager that the latter is unlikely, because they wouldn't be on their soapbox if they got said suspicious results, and they would be proclaiming it loud and proud if they were proven right.

Bob Ross

Are you thinking of Trek/Bontrager and their WaveCel helmet technology?

PeteHski

I like the idea of a more realistic "slippery" head model used in the testing. But we need some hard comparative results, ideally coming from a neutral lab. Kask simply stating that MIPS is pointless without hard comparative results to back it up doesn't really cut it for me. If it turns out that their non-MIPS helmets are class leading in the revised rotational impact test (i.e. beating all the MIPS and similarly equipped competition) then they would have proved their point once and for all. But this doesn't appear to be the case at this point.

Given that the added cost of MIPS is typically in the order of £10-20 and doesn't add any significant weight or comfort, I always choose the MIPS version of a given helmet where there is a choice. I currently wear a Lazer Genesis with MIPS and it is super-light and comfortable. If in the worst case the MIPS insert is redundant I'm not going to lose any sleep over it!

Sy Reene

Then again, for all we know, with a real human head, MIPS could be worse than non-MIPS (ie. slip planes on top of slip planes on top of slip planes on top of slip planes (MIPS, skullcap, hair, & scalp IOW)). If we've reached the point that there isn't any fully relevant empirical evidence one way or the other, then in theory MIPS could be more dangerous than non-MIPS.. just don't know.

Maelochs

I believe Bontrager is Specialized's house brand and Specialized was the first to air the adds .... probably because if they had used the Bontrager imprimatur people would have realized it was just an accessory, while with Specialized as the initiator, it could have been almost anything bike-related.

MoAlpha

Then add to that the absence of clinical evidence that concussion per se can be mitigated by bicycle helmets at all, let alone by MIPS etc. I wear MIPS helmets for all the obvious reasons and I know they will protect my scalp and skull, but more than that is just hope.

Koyote

I think you know this and just mis-typed, but Bontrager is a Trek house brand.

Maelochs

Yes, thanks .... i didn't pay a lot of attention because the ads were so ridiculous (IMO) and yes, sometimes I swap Trek and Spec .... thanks for the correction.

PeteHski

I would say on balance there is probably more chance of MIPS being of some value (however limited) than actually being detrimental. But as you say, we really don't know for sure as consumers. Maybe this Kask test protocol might help to answer that question. In the meantime I'll take my chances with MIPS since most high-end helmets have it (or a similar proprietary system) anyway. Kask are an exception and I would be happy enough wearing one of their helmets if it fitted me well.

Maelochs

As I re3call there was a sticker on a Mips helmet which said something about how the helmet didn't offer any significant concussion protection at speeds of over 13 mph. It is doubtless in a thread about the "Big Announcement" about some new product which would "change cycling forever." Or maybe in a thread on Mips helmets. Interested parties are free to search.

As I said above (actually based on something another member said---he wears a helmet to save the rest of his ride, not to prevent a concussion) I am pretty sure that no bike helmet seriously mitigates concussion likelihood at the speeds most of us ride. Bike helmets are a tremendous compromise because given the orientation of a cyclist's head and the lack of other supporting safety gear, a heavier helmet would detract from the riding experience.

Twice concussed rising MTBs, both times wearing decent, state-of-whatever-was-the-tech-back-hen helmets .... sorry but if you suddenly decelerate the head from 15-20 mph to zero in a few inches , with or without rotating action, your brain is doing coup-contracoup. An inch of Nothing can compress rapidly and yet slowly enough to absorb that energy. Mips is a way to charge more but if you ever see a pro rider in a Kask helmet ... the guys who crash at the highest speeds, the most frequently .... you have to ask "Why?" and 'Because the helmet is free" isn't convincing for World Tour teams with multi-million-dollar budgets. You aren't getting the sponsor's name out there if your prize sprinter is in a coma .....

But again, if people Feel safer, even though there really isn't dispositive evidence that they are safer .... and they want to spend more to feel safer .... awesome. And for all or anyone else knows, the Mips (or wavecell, or whatever is the next hyped "breakthrough helmet tech") might work in one out of a million impacts, and well ... that's good, right?

PeteHski

I simply go for the helmets with the highest rating from the likes of Virginia Tech testing. Current one I have happens to include MIPS and is used by several World Tour teams. They only appear to have tested one Kask helmet and it scored well below average on those tests.

bruce19

Some very good questions raised in that article. I am usually skeptical of new tech until I see real world results. So far I haven't. If anyone has, please post a link. I'd love to see it.