Bertin cyclocross?
10-21-23, 04:28 AM
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Bertin cyclocross?
Hello everyone,
I was directed to this forum by a very helpful guy on a different forum, sorry I don't know his name. Some years ago I picked up an interesting bike that I was told was a Peugeot, however despite the decals and the Peugeot stem, this may not be the case. The bike may actually be a Bertin and I understand there is someone, bertinjim, who is an authority on the make. As far as I can tell there isn't a frame number on the bike. I can't contact Jim directly because I have insufficient posts to overcome the anti-spam software. Anyway, the bike has the following:
Prugnat 62bis lugs
Ekla H fork crown.
'BUTTED' stamped on the seat tube, there may be more stamping but the paint is rock hard and mostly yet to be removed
'VITUS' on the fork legs
Seat tube is 28mm OD, seat post is Sakae 25.25mm OD
Both the fixed and adjustable crank cups are right-hand threads
Head and crank sets are Stronglight
Brake levers Mafac
Cantilever brakes are Mafac, Criterium I think
The front wheel spoke crossings are wired
I appreciate some of the above may not reflect the original build.
If the bike is something a little special I would pay for the frame to be professionally restored, maybe Argos in Bristol (UK), but without knowing what it is and without a picture this would be difficult to get right. If anyone can shed light on the bike I'd be grateful, and if you know Jim, maybe let him know about this thread.
Thanks in advance,
Chris.
I was directed to this forum by a very helpful guy on a different forum, sorry I don't know his name. Some years ago I picked up an interesting bike that I was told was a Peugeot, however despite the decals and the Peugeot stem, this may not be the case. The bike may actually be a Bertin and I understand there is someone, bertinjim, who is an authority on the make. As far as I can tell there isn't a frame number on the bike. I can't contact Jim directly because I have insufficient posts to overcome the anti-spam software. Anyway, the bike has the following:
Prugnat 62bis lugs
Ekla H fork crown.
'BUTTED' stamped on the seat tube, there may be more stamping but the paint is rock hard and mostly yet to be removed
'VITUS' on the fork legs
Seat tube is 28mm OD, seat post is Sakae 25.25mm OD
Both the fixed and adjustable crank cups are right-hand threads
Head and crank sets are Stronglight
Brake levers Mafac
Cantilever brakes are Mafac, Criterium I think
The front wheel spoke crossings are wired
I appreciate some of the above may not reflect the original build.
If the bike is something a little special I would pay for the frame to be professionally restored, maybe Argos in Bristol (UK), but without knowing what it is and without a picture this would be difficult to get right. If anyone can shed light on the bike I'd be grateful, and if you know Jim, maybe let him know about this thread.
Thanks in advance,
Chris.
10-21-23, 06:43 AM
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10-21-23, 07:32 AM
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Pic assist
Lots of decals!
Horn may suggests the frame is older than the decals
Lots of decals!
Horn may suggests the frame is older than the decals
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10-21-23, 07:44 AM
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10-21-23, 08:27 AM
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Bertin for decades would stamp the size on the outside of the non drive side dropout, center to top. Nada here.
no serial number either but that is not definitive.
The seat stay tops are also different, these extend beyond and are formed to the curve.
The striping on the fork IS of the appearance that Bertin did up until 1973 or so on upper models.
The lug lining is different, the internal top tube routing of the brake cable is not of the type seen until many years later.
French, but inconclusive as to “cameraman”. (Word that google translate converts from French to English for framebuilder often)
no serial number either but that is not definitive.
The seat stay tops are also different, these extend beyond and are formed to the curve.
The striping on the fork IS of the appearance that Bertin did up until 1973 or so on upper models.
The lug lining is different, the internal top tube routing of the brake cable is not of the type seen until many years later.
French, but inconclusive as to “cameraman”. (Word that google translate converts from French to English for framebuilder often)
10-21-23, 08:58 AM
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lug pattern Prugnat 62/s
fork crown NERVEX D/B Randonneur cut Nr. 7
ends set Juy Ref. 1752 / 1753 & Ref. 932 / 933
agree with others; see nothing to suggest Andyness
perchance members @Markeologist & MauriceMoss will see something
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lug pattern Prugnat 62/s
fork crown NERVEX D/B Randonneur cut Nr. 7
ends set Juy Ref. 1752 / 1753 & Ref. 932 / 933
agree with others; see nothing to suggest Andyness
perchance members @Markeologist & MauriceMoss will see something
-----
Last edited by juvela; 10-22-23 at 10:47 AM. Reason: spellin'
10-21-23, 09:36 AM
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Thank you Schreck83 for help with the pictures. I think this is great, people all over the planet sharing an interest in a bike that cost less than £100 and came with an unused tubular tyre! Looking at it from a different angle, is it possible to say what it isn't? By that I mean are the Peugeot decals simply wrong?
I have been busy polishing the aluminium parts and the way they have come up suggests quality materials. I have a lot of experience restoring old motorcycles and often, no matter how much effort you put in, you can never get some of the aluminium parts to come up as you would like, especially on some of the early Japanese models. This is only the second bicycle I have tackled and I must say the Mafac cantilevers now look like little jewels, probably no surprise to you guys!
To confuse matters further I was looking through old emails from when I bought the bike and the vendor told me it had been ridden by Thierry Schneider, father of French tennis player Vincent Thierry Schneider. This may be a great big red herring of course.
Onward!
I have been busy polishing the aluminium parts and the way they have come up suggests quality materials. I have a lot of experience restoring old motorcycles and often, no matter how much effort you put in, you can never get some of the aluminium parts to come up as you would like, especially on some of the early Japanese models. This is only the second bicycle I have tackled and I must say the Mafac cantilevers now look like little jewels, probably no surprise to you guys!
To confuse matters further I was looking through old emails from when I bought the bike and the vendor told me it had been ridden by Thierry Schneider, father of French tennis player Vincent Thierry Schneider. This may be a great big red herring of course.
Onward!
10-21-23, 09:57 AM
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I must admit I'm struggling a little with the gallery. If I click on 'Gallery' at the top of the page I'm taken to a new page where if I click on 'My Pictures' I'm taken to 'Chris27's albums'. From here I can select an album called 'Bertin?', this is where I can see the pictures of the bike I uploaded so I don't know why they can't be seen. The gallery is pretty much what Schreck83 added above.
Sorry, I know it's me, I'm doing something wrong, not sure what though?
I teach Year 6 children Bikeability (Cycling Proficiency for those of a certain age) and one of the little darlings recently called me 'Elderly' (OLD wouldn't have been too bad, but elderly!!). Never more true though than when learning how to use unfamiliar software
Sorry, I know it's me, I'm doing something wrong, not sure what though?
I teach Year 6 children Bikeability (Cycling Proficiency for those of a certain age) and one of the little darlings recently called me 'Elderly' (OLD wouldn't have been too bad, but elderly!!). Never more true though than when learning how to use unfamiliar software
10-21-23, 10:53 AM
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The Gallery is really pokey (slow to load), so a "pic assist" saves time for everyone. I think I skipped one of your front dropout photos. The wire tied spokes, too.
As a new user, you can make 5 posts per day and after 10 posts you can upload pix to a thread, send PM's, etc.
As a new user, you can make 5 posts per day and after 10 posts you can upload pix to a thread, send PM's, etc.
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Last edited by Schreck83; 10-21-23 at 10:56 AM.
10-21-23, 11:10 AM
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very interesting bike: I'm also not sure if this is a Bertin (or even something from RonKit built by Bertin) so will watch for the input from experts.
Also curious if it turns out to be expressly for CX racing or just a frame with canti brake bosses and (yes it seem incongruous) internal TT cable routing, but one thing is the double crank MIGHT have close range tooth counts, like you'd see in a CX.
2 more thots: that 25.25 seat post size might be what a caliper says, but never seen any post with that fraction, see if it has a number stamped on the shaft. my guess is correct size will be 26.4 or thereabouts.
A frame made in this era for CX would be far more likely to be from Benelux than France and with all the FR details (Prugnat, Stronglight, Simplex) I wonder if it could be some Belgian brand?
Also curious if it turns out to be expressly for CX racing or just a frame with canti brake bosses and (yes it seem incongruous) internal TT cable routing, but one thing is the double crank MIGHT have close range tooth counts, like you'd see in a CX.
2 more thots: that 25.25 seat post size might be what a caliper says, but never seen any post with that fraction, see if it has a number stamped on the shaft. my guess is correct size will be 26.4 or thereabouts.
A frame made in this era for CX would be far more likely to be from Benelux than France and with all the FR details (Prugnat, Stronglight, Simplex) I wonder if it could be some Belgian brand?
10-21-23, 11:54 AM
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closeup of fixed cup shows marking indicating metric thread
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closeup of fixed cup shows marking indicating metric thread
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10-21-23, 04:55 PM
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Hi all,
Chainrings are 52/42, crank length 170mm
There is no number stamped on the Sakae seat post shaft. I checked the measurement again at different places and the measurement does vary a little, At the very top, where there would be little or no wear it measures 25.27mm, (0.9950 inch). Could this be an imperial seat post shaft, i.e. 1"?
Chainrings are 52/42, crank length 170mm
There is no number stamped on the Sakae seat post shaft. I checked the measurement again at different places and the measurement does vary a little, At the very top, where there would be little or no wear it measures 25.27mm, (0.9950 inch). Could this be an imperial seat post shaft, i.e. 1"?
10-21-23, 05:14 PM
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a Sakae Ringyo saddle pillar would not have been original to the cycle at this era
as mentioned above one would expect frame to exhibit a saddle pillar opening size of ~26.4mm
it is likely someone has fitted a too small pillar and then pinched down the binder ears by torqueing the binder bolt in an effort to keep a too small pillar stationary
this is a frequent occurrence
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a Sakae Ringyo saddle pillar would not have been original to the cycle at this era
as mentioned above one would expect frame to exhibit a saddle pillar opening size of ~26.4mm
it is likely someone has fitted a too small pillar and then pinched down the binder ears by torqueing the binder bolt in an effort to keep a too small pillar stationary
this is a frequent occurrence
-----
10-21-23, 09:21 PM
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Chris27-
I would suggest that it is not a Bertin. As mentioned Bertin typically stamped serial and frame size numbers on the non-drive side rear dropout. The older style hooked Simplex dropout would usually indicate a late 60s bike or very early 70s. That is at odds with the enclosed cable run which is an add on from the later re-spray with incorrect Peugeot decals. Bertin's cyclocross bike was a variant of the C 34 built with Durifort frameset and cantilevers. As well, the stay caps would be fluted rather than semi-wrap overs. Vitus usually stamped durifort in lower case on the fork legs, steerer and often on the down tube. If it has a numbered frameset like 971 it will show v.971 in those locations.
I would suggest that it is not a Bertin. As mentioned Bertin typically stamped serial and frame size numbers on the non-drive side rear dropout. The older style hooked Simplex dropout would usually indicate a late 60s bike or very early 70s. That is at odds with the enclosed cable run which is an add on from the later re-spray with incorrect Peugeot decals. Bertin's cyclocross bike was a variant of the C 34 built with Durifort frameset and cantilevers. As well, the stay caps would be fluted rather than semi-wrap overs. Vitus usually stamped durifort in lower case on the fork legs, steerer and often on the down tube. If it has a numbered frameset like 971 it will show v.971 in those locations.
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10-21-23, 10:06 PM
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It's an interesting quest for a Bertin. I would suggest that it looks like a Peugeot, has components of a Peugeot, and is decaled as a Peugeot... Oh well... Peugeot till proven otherwise.
As for the serial numbers, I think you need to consult that near sited trolian elf who maintains the exact production numbered data base and his personal cipher.
As for the serial numbers, I think you need to consult that near sited trolian elf who maintains the exact production numbered data base and his personal cipher.
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10-22-23, 05:14 AM
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Thank you everyone, I think it's wonderful that people have a passion for old bicycles, just look at where the messages have come from, all around the world. I would hazard a guess that 'we' are of a similar generation, a generation that grew up looking to maintain and repair our things rather than use until failure then replace. I don't know that this disposable world is such a good thing?
Anyway, putting those thoughts to one side, I spent some time looking at the bike this morning, taking on board the previous messages. I have a Campy 26.4mm seat post and even after opening up the saddle pillar opening there's no way it was going in. I then tried the existing seat post and it was pretty loose (having opened up the saddle pillar opening). It may well be that 26.4mm is correct but that the opening has slight ovality, I don't think it would take much ovality to create a problem. I then removed more paint in areas where I thought there might be information but found none.
Everything is suggesting the bike is a 'bitza', this isn't a problem for me, it just means I won't have the bike frame and forks restored and painted professionally given I have no idea what decals to use.
Rather than take up more of people's valuable time I'll accept it for what it is. I'll get a local guy to remove the paint then I'll paint it a colour of my choice, lime green maybe (think Kawasaki). I'll then enjoy riding it having been through this lengthy bonding exercise
I looked back at the emails from when I bought the bike, September 2019, and I paid £92 for including a new and unused tubular tyre, I'd forgotten how little I paid. The guy I bought it off said he believed it had been ridden by a Thierry Schneider, father of French tennis player Vincent Thierry Schneider. I don't know of Thierry and of course I have no way of knowing if this is correct.
Anyway, thanks again everyone, it has been fun trying to solve the mystery and I will post a picture when it's ready to ride,
Best regards,
Chris.
Anyway, putting those thoughts to one side, I spent some time looking at the bike this morning, taking on board the previous messages. I have a Campy 26.4mm seat post and even after opening up the saddle pillar opening there's no way it was going in. I then tried the existing seat post and it was pretty loose (having opened up the saddle pillar opening). It may well be that 26.4mm is correct but that the opening has slight ovality, I don't think it would take much ovality to create a problem. I then removed more paint in areas where I thought there might be information but found none.
Everything is suggesting the bike is a 'bitza', this isn't a problem for me, it just means I won't have the bike frame and forks restored and painted professionally given I have no idea what decals to use.
Rather than take up more of people's valuable time I'll accept it for what it is. I'll get a local guy to remove the paint then I'll paint it a colour of my choice, lime green maybe (think Kawasaki). I'll then enjoy riding it having been through this lengthy bonding exercise
I looked back at the emails from when I bought the bike, September 2019, and I paid £92 for including a new and unused tubular tyre, I'd forgotten how little I paid. The guy I bought it off said he believed it had been ridden by a Thierry Schneider, father of French tennis player Vincent Thierry Schneider. I don't know of Thierry and of course I have no way of knowing if this is correct.
Anyway, thanks again everyone, it has been fun trying to solve the mystery and I will post a picture when it's ready to ride,
Best regards,
Chris.
10-22-23, 06:32 AM
#18
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a Sakae Ringyo saddle pillar would not have been original to the cycle at this era
as mentioned above one would expect frame to exhibit a saddle pillar opening size of ~26.4mm
it is likely someone has fitted a too small pillar and then pinched down the binder ears by torqueing the binder bolt in an effort to keep a too small pillar stationary
this is a frequent occurrence
-----
a Sakae Ringyo saddle pillar would not have been original to the cycle at this era
as mentioned above one would expect frame to exhibit a saddle pillar opening size of ~26.4mm
it is likely someone has fitted a too small pillar and then pinched down the binder ears by torqueing the binder bolt in an effort to keep a too small pillar stationary
this is a frequent occurrence
-----
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
10-22-23, 10:28 AM
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Well unless you have original sales documents about ownership, any claims on famous or not so famous ownership are meaningless…now about the frame.
As noted in OP and confirmed by @juvela, the frame uses Prugnut 62s as found on some Bertins but these lugs are found on many other French bikes as well so no help there … the fish mouthed stay and fork ends were used by Carre including on some of his contract-Bertins but those don’t look like Carre’s work with the facet/bevel around edge of opening (one looks like a repair too). The wrap on the seat stay cap doesn’t look correct for Carre Bertin either nor other Bertins I’ve seen. Here are some photos of stay ends and willow leaf seat stay caps on my Carre…as well as the fish mouth stay ends and Carre-style willow leaf cap on my Gitane Super Corsa (umarked willow leaf caps are found on some higher-end Gitanes, LeJuenes, and Bertins, and I assume some are copies of the style rather than actual Carre-made caps). So basically I’m not sure what we have here but I’ll ponder some more 🤔
As noted in OP and confirmed by @juvela, the frame uses Prugnut 62s as found on some Bertins but these lugs are found on many other French bikes as well so no help there … the fish mouthed stay and fork ends were used by Carre including on some of his contract-Bertins but those don’t look like Carre’s work with the facet/bevel around edge of opening (one looks like a repair too). The wrap on the seat stay cap doesn’t look correct for Carre Bertin either nor other Bertins I’ve seen. Here are some photos of stay ends and willow leaf seat stay caps on my Carre…as well as the fish mouth stay ends and Carre-style willow leaf cap on my Gitane Super Corsa (umarked willow leaf caps are found on some higher-end Gitanes, LeJuenes, and Bertins, and I assume some are copies of the style rather than actual Carre-made caps). So basically I’m not sure what we have here but I’ll ponder some more 🤔
Last edited by Markeologist; 10-22-23 at 12:49 PM.
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