Tourist in MSN

I was really surprised when my niece's hubby told me how much worse their Tesla performed for "mileage" in near freezing temperatures compared to normal temperatures, but for them the car works great as a primary commuter. They have a gas car too for longer trips. I think the one with the short commute drives the gas car, the longer commuter drives the EV. But longer trips, they tried that once in the Tesla and had trouble getting it charged without spending a lot of time and effort to do so.

I am retired, so no commuting. I average about 4000 miles a year in a vehicle, buying any vehicle that is new makes no sense, the warranty would end before the oil needs changing. And more than half my vehicle miles are on trips of several hundreds of miles, so an EV makes no sense for me. Most of my in town trips are on a bicycle. (Exception, as I type this it is minus 9 degrees (F) outside, not biking anywhere this week, we had something like 20 inches of snow last week.) I do not have a heated garage to store an EV with it's battery inside in this kind of weather. The 19 year old Volvo will do for my dentist appt today.

noglider 

@Tourist in MSN, my spouse owned two cars, a Prius for commuting and a Honda Element for hauling. They died about a month apart. She replaced both with the Tesla. It's big enough for hauling construction supplies, but it's not as convenient for hauling bikes as the Element. I'll eventually get a bike rack. I don't plan to buy any motor vehicles. Maybe in the next year or two, I'll get an e-bike.

Anyway, electric cars aren't for everyone, but it's working out well for us. The car is never inside. It's disappointing to see the battery drain when it's not even being driven, especially in the cold, but everything has its downsides and cost of doing business. I've heard maintenance costs on this car are not actually low: the tires are expensive, and she already damaged one and needed to replace it. I hear body work is super expensive. But fuel costs, even in the cold, are lower than a gas car. We have a hookup on our barn at our weekend house, so we "fill up" there cheaply. We have solar panels, so electric costs are quite low there. But that's 95 miles from our home in the City. She's found that Tesla Supercharger stations work well for her when she's en route somewhere, usually in New Jersey. I think they charge up to 40 cents per kwh. Charging in Manhattan is stupidly expensive for the energy, and they charge for parking, too. Lucky for my spouse that she doesn't need to charge in Manhattan.

Last night, we drove from the weekend house to our apartment in Manhattan. It was about 24ºF. We went from 91% charged to 46%, and that's worse than usual, but we can live with it since it's really not expensive. The battery is 75 kwh in theory. One cool thing is that when we plot the trip on the navigator, it estimates the amount of energy left in the battery at the end of the trip. It is extremely accurate. When we set off, it estimated 46%, and that' was exactly the result.

It might work a heck of a lot worse in lower temperatures.

Teslas are becoming viable for an increasing number of people, partly because of the extensive charging network. I see taxis in the City that are Teslas. Taxi drivers wouldn't be driving them if they didn't make economic sense.

Tourist in MSN

I do not disagree with anything you said.

I used to work with a co-worker that had a long commute, much on a freeway with a Prius, she claimed about 50 miles to the gallon in summer but only about 35 in winter.

I suggested to my sister that she get a EV when the rebates got really good. She never drove more than 40 or 50 miles per day, no long distances. She did not listen to me, she bought a Subaru EV (made by Toyota) that had no incentives because it was made in Japan. But she loves it. Her kids told her to get Tesla instead, but I am glad she did not. I am hearing that Tesla repairs after the warranty is up are really costly. Other brands (Ford, GM, Toyota, etc.), have lots of aftermarket body parts and other parts available for them from lower cost manufacturers, but it is my understanding that Tesla is the only source for parts. If I am incorrect on that, please correct me.

On parts, for a quick example, I had a Land Rover D2. My OBD2 code reader suggested that I needed a new part under the hood. On one of the internet forums, someone was saying do not buy the Land Rover part, and do not buy the cheaper aftermarket part from a Land Rover supplier. Instead buy this part for a Hyundai from Amazon, it is the same part. I bought the $25 part from Amazon instead of the $100 aftermarket part or the $200 Land Rover part, and it was identical, worked great.

In my community, the taxi company that I usually used when I needed a ride was one that used Prius cars, and those Prius cars had a bike rack on the back of them. Last time I took a taxi was to and from the airport for my 2019 bike tour, my S&S case (with bike) and a checked bag fit in the Prius trunk, along with the carry on bag. A few years ago they switched to Teslas but soon after that they went out of business. I suspect a big part of that was covid. I do not know if the switch to Teslas was part of that or not, that was at about the same time. I am sure that Uber was part of that too, as somehow Uber escaped the same kinds of regulations that a taxi company had.

We are way off topic here, if we continue we should do private messages.

Barry2 

Wife and I have been using EV's for running around town and commuting for 9+ years.
During most of that time the manufacturers were over estimating the residual lease value, meaning an EV lease could be as low as $150/month, (for 3yr, 15k/yr).

We saved a bunch of money and thoroughly enjoy EVs.

"Anyway, electric cars aren't for everyone, but it's working out well for us. "

Barry

79pmooney

Shrinkage in the cold! Last weekend we spent 30 hours with no power and 10F temps starting with arctic wins. Shrinkage could not be verified because we all wore way too many layers! Outdoors, indoors and in bed.

And seriously, the batteries I've been using for bike lights since they first came out are the DuraCells. I haven't ever done tests but have found through experience that even in very cold weather I get decent light life and almost always one last ride on a light that is dying unlike just about every other alkaline I've use that after the previous ride simply didn't work. But - that was with the old "stupid" batteries, The new smart ones need their full voltage for the computers to work. (This seems to go for just about everything digital. I have a box of DuraCells with 2/3ds to 3/4s of a charge according to my battery check that work just fine for the old flashlights for a little while.)

This observation about the DuraCells applies to the AAA, AA, C and Ds. I don't think it applies to the coin size batteries like the 2032s.

Alan K

Tesla isn’t for everyone, and it will never be…
Getting back to the bicycle lights and performance of batteries in cold winters. All chemical reactions are effected by temperature, batteries are no exception. Of course, depending on the chemistry of specific battery, it may be effected by temperature more or less.
My usual solution to keep Li battery performing well at fairly low temperature while bicycling is to slip the battery inside my jacket pocket and connect it to the light using a minimum of 20G wire. Body heat keeps the battery warm enough to have it last close to normal times. During really cold weather with snow on ground, my commuting time does increase significantly- some times up to 1 hr on bad days but never an issue with batteries (a 4 battery pack, connected 2px2s).

Alan K

I am curious about the modern dynamo as to much perceptible drag they cause. I remember the old style dynamos that used to work by spinning against the side of the rear wheel tire. I thought they were awful and removed it off my bicycle within a few weeks. Of course, this was pre- LED era so the bulbs didn’t produce much light for all that drag.

unterhausen

I have never been able to feel any resistance from a dynohub. It's certainly not like the old days with sidewall dynos. I know intellectually that it's stealing power, but I can't feel it.
I much prefer to know my lights are on.

steelbikeguy

My recollection is that my old bottle dynamo required me to shift down one gear on my Schwinn LeTour or the Raleigh Gran Sport. That was in the days of 5 or 6 speed freewheels, so one gear was significant.

On my Schmidt SON hub dynamo, I've never been able to tell the difference between on and off, even before white LEDs, when I was using an incandescent B&M Lumotec headlight. In fact, that was a bit of a problem if you ran the headlight in the daytime. The bulbs only lasted around 100 hours, and you could burn out the protective zener diode if it had to absorb all of the power from the dynamo.

Steve in Peoria

Alan K

Good to know.
In the old bottle one, I remember the difference was quite obvious as you noted. Distinction was easy because one had to flick the mechanism so it makes contact with the tire. In the case of SON hub dynamo, is there a mechanism which moves magnets internally when one switches lights on or are they fixed and always generating power regardless of lights being on?
I guess the other way to ask the question is if one raises the front wheel and spins it, does it keep going for a long time like a wheel with good hub should?

steelbikeguy

There is no change in the hub dynamo. If the wheel is turning, there is voltage at the terminals.
There are small losses when the dynamo turns... a few watts, if memory serves.
There is additional drag when the light is turned on and the current flows, but I think it is about 9 or 10 watts total for the SON. Other hub dynamos have different losses, but the SON usually has the lowest losses (this is based on old data... maybe other dynamos have improved since then??).
With the light turned on, spinning the front wheel will only result in a few rotations (roughly). 9 or 10 watts isn't much compared to what it takes to push a bike down the road, but it is a lot compared to the tiny amount of power required to keep a well lubed wheel spinning.

Steve in Peoria

Alan K

Thanks for the info - I’m contemplating building a wheel with SON dynamo.
The last set of wheels I built, I remember soon after finishing when I spun the front wheel on the truing stand, it went on for quite a while - I’m thinking may be 2 min but I may be wrong on that. A small drag to avoid charging and using batteries seems like a good idea at this point.

Tourist in MSN

When you say "modern dynamo", they have not changed much in over a decade.

This article is one of many I read before I built up my first dynohub wheel over a decade ago. There is a graph with drag with lights on and off.
https://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/defa...ub-dynamos.pdf

I can't feel any drag when I am riding with lights on, so I usually just leave them on in daytime unless I am charging up batteries instead.

I mainly bought my first dynohub for bike touring to use for battery charging. On my last two tours, I was fully self sufficient on electric power from my hub. But my phone is typically off. I am very careful on my GPS to keep the backlight off or at a minimum. When charging batteries, my lights are off. I often use a AAA powered flasher in the rear during daytime.

If I am off the bike, lift my front wheel and give it a spin by hand, it will slow down much quicker if the light is on compared to off, so I know there is drag, but it is quite minor. That said, if you are a racer, you might not get on the podium if you had your lights on.

You did not say why you are interested in a dynohub. If it is for lighting, they are great. A very good recent article on that is here:
https://bikepacking.com/plan/dynamo-...harging-guide/

If you are interested, I described how I wired up my rando bike here:
https://www.bikeforums.net/electroni...b-charger.html

For battery charging, I used to use the Sinewave Revolution, but I switched last year to the Cycle2Charge V3 USB charger, it puts out a bit more power, but a downside is that if stops putting out any power below about 6.5 or 7 mph.

2_i 

All 11 bikes under my direct care, my own or family member's, are equipped with dynohubs. I even have spare wheels with dynohubs in case another needs maintenance work. Most of the dynohubs are cheap Shimano, but they are also a couple of Schmidts.

Alan K

Thank you for very useful information.

I’m not a racer so no issues about the podium. Finishing what I plan for a specific day is good enough.

By modern, I meant whatever is currently considered the best. If this technology is a decade old, that only means that the mechanism is already near perfect or someone would have surely improved it. Of course, in the context of bicycles, progress and time have a different kind of relationship… it’s not like electronics, batteries, LEDs.

I will definitely have a couple of battery operated blinking lights for front and rear in addition to the main light running off the generator. I will look into the most efficient LED emitter to mate with dynamo. I am hoping that the light part of the setup has been updated during the last decade. If not, older LEDs were not as efficient as the newer versions. If needed, I would swap the emitter and the driver. We shall see… another winter project, they keep adding up.

Once again, thank you.

Tourist in MSN

I am not exactly sure what you are saying, but I think you are saying you might try to build a light or re-build a light. Many of the light models change frequently, so I think you would find they are up to date for tech.

I think the current lights out there are plenty adequate, but most of the dynohub powered lights are designed for on-road German standards, a low flat beam for adequate lighting and not wasting light up higher or putting light into oncoming car drivers eyes.

And then there are the lights that have a flashlight beam with a round pattern, which off-road riders may prefer. I am quite happy with the B&M lights that have 70 or more Lux for on-road use or for rail trails. I have B&M dyno powered headlamps on four bikes.

I bought most of my lights from European internet sellers, was quite happy with their pricing. Some of the European sellers have a very high shipping fee for the first item, but additional items do not add to that cost.

unterhausen

If you really need a dyno headlight to see, I don't think you can beat a Busch and Miller IQ-X for optics and efficiency. Optics are a real art, and BuM is the best at it from what I can tell. Supernova barely has a clue, and so far the Edelux is using optics from BuM that are a generation behind the IQ-X. People have updated the emitter in the IQ-X. I think there is supposed to be a new version this year with a high beam, so maybe they will update the emitters. The stock emitter is really good though.

Alan K

Yes, I meant to update the LED emitter within the light. If these companies are keeping up with increasingly efficient versions of Cree emitter, for instance, that’s even better news.

There have been a couple of occasions when riding during the night time, my battery was on its last leg and it wasn’t fun riding in the night on poorly lit or unlit bike trails. Fortunately, I had a second small flashlight (used as a blinking light in the front), which I used as the main light and I made it home safely. Ever since then, I have had spare charger and a battery at work to avoid a recurrence of that experience. Using a dynamo based light takes care of the problem quite nicely.

Alan K

Yes, the light I am interested in changing is to see in night on bike trails. I was looking at the beam profile of these German lights and it does look much better than a regular flash light or even lights sold for use on bicycles, many of which tend to produce a large circle of illumination and surely, the people in oncoming traffic can’t be happy about it. I recall when HID lights were first introduced in German cars, the US authorities were very concerned about the scattered light that might blind oncoming traffic and wouldn’t allow them in US. Once the projector lamps and suitable optics was incorporated, the problem was solved. We are essentially seeing a smaller scale adaptation of similar principle for bicycles. From what can guess, they are doing it by fresnel lenses. Cutting off the distant illumination beyond a certain point, like low beams in cars, is an excellent idea.

Tourist in MSN

Sorry for one more off topic post, a good article in NY Times on EVs and cold weather. (Paywall.)
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/17/b...d-weather.html

Addendum:
https://www.npr.org/2024/01/17/12252...ge-in-the-cold

Alan K

Both extremes of temperature, cold and hot, are not friends of batteries.

I have heard from a relative in Minnesota a couple of years ago about significantly reduced miles they get in the winter.
Likewise, a friend who has relatives in the Middle East mentioned that in their summers when the temp hits 120 and higher, Tesla cants keep the occupants of car cool enough and range of fully charged battery goes way down. Some literally cook themselves.

steelbikeguy

one of the hallmarks of a charged battery is that all of the potential chemical reactions have taken place, and there's no longer a good way to use the power being shoved into the battery. This tends to produce heat and some excess gases, which increases the pressure in the battery. A good charger (or charge algorithm) will either cut off charge slightly prior to this, or monitor the voltage and temperature and adjust the charge rate accordingly. If the temperature is already high due to being in a hot environment, then that messes with the charge algorithm and might result in the battery not reaching full charge.

Having lived a few years in southwest Arizona, I learned that it's best to just not do stuff when it's so hot! Wait till things cool off! I used the bottle dynamo for night rides quite a bit back then.

Steve in Peoria (but formerly in Yuma)

Canker

The whole Chicago thing is a mix of problems.
1. The cold makes charging even on fast chargers slow if the car isn't preconditioned before charging(owner ignorance)
2. People buying EVs that can't charge at home or work and relying on public fast charging clogging up the chargers
3. Rideshare people clogging up the DC fast chargers. From the youtubers I've watched this look like around 50% of the problem
4. EV makers giving people free DC fast charging so the I'm a cheap bastard and will use all my free charging people are there instead of charging at home
5. more owner ignorance by people charging all the way to 100% when they charge slow as poo over 80% and clogging up the chargers
6. more owner ignorance by people showing up with a stone cold 0 or colder battery temp so the car won't charge at all because it has to warm the battery up to above 32f first so they either blame the charger claiming it is broken or sit there forever clogging up the charger just heating up their battery before it will do anything. Guess that kind of ties in to #1
7. The cold makes EV less effiecient so the people above have to charge more often clogging up chargers
8. The DC fast chargers aren't that reliable and even Tesla's Super Chargers known for their reliability were having some issues.


Anyway back to lights lol. I've always use lights that had separate batteries and never really noticed the cold hurting their run time. The batter was in a little pouch and either in my backpack or mounted in the frame behind the headtube so protected from the wind. I just recently bought a new all in one handle bar light and ouch. Even in 40f+ temps I notice a hit on it's run time. I've started keeping it in my pocket protected somewhat till I need it and I've found I get the best run time using Med most of the time and never Low. In med and high the light creates enough heat to keeps itself warm and runs just as long if not longer than when I bounce between low and high.

Alan K

I find it puzzling, to say the least, that someone who is buying a new Tesla by spending (or borrowing) ~$60,000 or more would not have enough common sense to familiarize himself or herself with characteristics of its battery and how to charge it properly.

As far as commuting goes, every one I know who owns one of these contraptions, plug it in their garage after they return home. Some of them have charging facility at their work (provided for free by their employers), they take advantage of those chargers.

Fast chargers are not terribly good for the battery in the long run and most of friends use them only when they absolutely have to… such as on trips that are longer than a couple of hundred miles. [In fact, only one person I know drove a Tesla from San Francisco to Chicago as an experiment and didn’t like the experience much.]

I think a hybrid is still the most practical option. A Prius is good and gives about 50-55 MPG. If one wishes for a little more comfort for longer drives, Lexus ES Hybrid is decent. [ A little worse MPG for extra comfort and features of convenience.]

Chuck M 

My Ring and Simplisafe batteries die like salted slugs in very cold weather. If I were tough enough to find out, I'd think my Bontrager lights would go well over two hours in this weather but I don't know how much over.