Chain lube differences
05-18-21, 01:25 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Chain lube differences
Due to temporary unavailability, I switched from “Atlantic” PTFE chain lube (a thin lube marketed for dry and wet conditions) to “Muc-off” dry lube wax PTFE for dry conditions. I can’t see performance differences for riding in dry weather. Although it attracts more particles (dust), Atlantic assures more than 10000 km chain usage (with deep cleaning every 1000 - 1500 km). I have no experience with “Muc off” in this respect, since I only used it for around 1000 km.
However, there might be another big difference between the two: “Atlantic” keeps a thin oily aspect on the chain and doesn’t need to be re-applied for 1000 – 1500 km. “Muc off” looks to disappear and to require re-lubing every 150 – 250 km. All above in dry weather (no rain at all).
Does “Muc-off” need to be reapplied so often, or am I wrong in my assessment? Also, will Diesel fuel clean (dissolve) worn “Muc off” from the chain?
However, there might be another big difference between the two: “Atlantic” keeps a thin oily aspect on the chain and doesn’t need to be re-applied for 1000 – 1500 km. “Muc off” looks to disappear and to require re-lubing every 150 – 250 km. All above in dry weather (no rain at all).
Does “Muc-off” need to be reapplied so often, or am I wrong in my assessment? Also, will Diesel fuel clean (dissolve) worn “Muc off” from the chain?
Last edited by Redbullet; 05-18-21 at 01:30 PM.
05-18-21, 07:19 PM
#2
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Due to temporary unavailability, I switched from “Atlantic” PTFE chain lube (a thin lube marketed for dry and wet conditions) to “Muc-off” dry lube wax PTFE for dry conditions. I can’t see performance differences for riding in dry weather. Although it attracts more particles (dust), Atlantic assures more than 10000 km chain usage (with deep cleaning every 1000 - 1500 km). I have no experience with “Muc off” in this respect, since I only used it for around 1000 km.
However, there might be another big difference between the two: “Atlantic” keeps a thin oily aspect on the chain and doesn’t need to be re-applied for 1000 – 1500 km. “Muc off” looks to disappear and to require re-lubing every 150 – 250 km. All above in dry weather (no rain at all).
Does “Muc-off” need to be reapplied so often, or am I wrong in my assessment? Also, will Diesel fuel clean (dissolve) worn “Muc off” from the chain?
However, there might be another big difference between the two: “Atlantic” keeps a thin oily aspect on the chain and doesn’t need to be re-applied for 1000 – 1500 km. “Muc off” looks to disappear and to require re-lubing every 150 – 250 km. All above in dry weather (no rain at all).
Does “Muc-off” need to be reapplied so often, or am I wrong in my assessment? Also, will Diesel fuel clean (dissolve) worn “Muc off” from the chain?
05-18-21, 07:30 PM
#3
Senior Member
ptfe is bling bling. relatively speaking. and ALL bike specific (marketed) chain lubricants i have ever known of are either ridiculously expensive or crappy... or both expensive AND crappy compared to what i came to use after very much time of trying almost everything.
take my advice and get some:
1. microcrystalline wax - one way to distinguish it... petroleum wax that is not white but has a creamy dark yellow colour;
2. quality synthetic GL4 gear oil (all the additives in the product are useful for point 1. and the base oils are perfectly compatible with point 1.);
3. hexagonal boron nitride (hBN) additive.
i won't give specific products, i don't sell nor give any producer free advertising. your chains will last much longer and you only need to buy all these things once as the amount of lube you will get mixing them is huge. getting the chain off the bike takes a few seconds once you get to understand you need to press on the quicklink laterally (as to bring them closer to each other and decrease the gap between them - not that the difference would be visible) before sliding the parts.
you can read what i wrote on the homebrew subject - apart from the generated flame - here:
https://www.bikeforums.net/22064889-post93.html
generally speaking what i suggest is having a hot wax bath with ingredient 1. but before you do the hot bath pour in the cleaned chain some small droplets of the mixture you get with the ingredients 2. and 3. feel free to pour a much larger amount (percentage) of the ingredient 3. in the mixture and not go by the ratio written on the product. the 0.5 nanometers particle hBN powder costs at least 230 dollars for 1kg btw. so you can have an idea that it's about 1/5 in the additive container, along with some oils. and i would say that you can't go wrong having 5% concentration (meaning 5x more than the usual concentration - compared to the amount of the product added to the gear oil) in the chain lube which would be much more than overpriced products would have.
mineral spirits and alcohols used in cleaning are dirt cheap and can be used in a small amount over and over again, have 3 plastic bottles with wide lids to shake the chain in. 2 bottles for the nonpolar solvent, 1 bottle for the alcohols. any remaining solvent (mainly alcohol which is volatile) left in the chain after pouring the first mixture (ingredients 2. and 3.) will be evaporated at the hot bath stage (ingredient 3.). one main reason to not apply wax with a solvent (like xylene - in case you would dislike the hot bath approach)... to have the chain ready to ride immediately and the lubricant solid. no need for stuff like xylene which does not evaporate that quickly btw.
take my advice and get some:
1. microcrystalline wax - one way to distinguish it... petroleum wax that is not white but has a creamy dark yellow colour;
2. quality synthetic GL4 gear oil (all the additives in the product are useful for point 1. and the base oils are perfectly compatible with point 1.);
3. hexagonal boron nitride (hBN) additive.
i won't give specific products, i don't sell nor give any producer free advertising. your chains will last much longer and you only need to buy all these things once as the amount of lube you will get mixing them is huge. getting the chain off the bike takes a few seconds once you get to understand you need to press on the quicklink laterally (as to bring them closer to each other and decrease the gap between them - not that the difference would be visible) before sliding the parts.
you can read what i wrote on the homebrew subject - apart from the generated flame - here:
https://www.bikeforums.net/22064889-post93.html
generally speaking what i suggest is having a hot wax bath with ingredient 1. but before you do the hot bath pour in the cleaned chain some small droplets of the mixture you get with the ingredients 2. and 3. feel free to pour a much larger amount (percentage) of the ingredient 3. in the mixture and not go by the ratio written on the product. the 0.5 nanometers particle hBN powder costs at least 230 dollars for 1kg btw. so you can have an idea that it's about 1/5 in the additive container, along with some oils. and i would say that you can't go wrong having 5% concentration (meaning 5x more than the usual concentration - compared to the amount of the product added to the gear oil) in the chain lube which would be much more than overpriced products would have.
mineral spirits and alcohols used in cleaning are dirt cheap and can be used in a small amount over and over again, have 3 plastic bottles with wide lids to shake the chain in. 2 bottles for the nonpolar solvent, 1 bottle for the alcohols. any remaining solvent (mainly alcohol which is volatile) left in the chain after pouring the first mixture (ingredients 2. and 3.) will be evaporated at the hot bath stage (ingredient 3.). one main reason to not apply wax with a solvent (like xylene - in case you would dislike the hot bath approach)... to have the chain ready to ride immediately and the lubricant solid. no need for stuff like xylene which does not evaporate that quickly btw.
Last edited by adipe; 05-18-21 at 07:44 PM.
05-19-21, 05:55 AM
#4
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ptfe is bling bling. relatively speaking. and ALL bike specific (marketed) chain lubricants i have ever known of are either ridiculously expensive or crappy... or both expensive AND crappy compared to what i came to use after very much time of trying almost everything.
take my advice and get some:
1. microcrystalline wax - one way to distinguish it... petroleum wax that is not white but has a creamy dark yellow colour;
2. quality synthetic GL4 gear oil (all the additives in the product are useful for point 1. and the base oils are perfectly compatible with point 1.);
3. hexagonal boron nitride (hBN) additive.
i won't give specific products, i don't sell nor give any producer free advertising. your chains will last much longer and you only need to buy all these things once as the amount of lube you will get mixing them is huge. getting the chain off the bike takes a few seconds once you get to understand you need to press on the quicklink laterally (as to bring them closer to each other and decrease the gap between them - not that the difference would be visible) before sliding the parts.
you can read what i wrote on the homebrew subject - apart from the generated flame - here:
https://www.bikeforums.net/22064889-post93.html
generally speaking what i suggest is having a hot wax bath with ingredient 1. but before you do the hot bath pour in the cleaned chain some small droplets of the mixture you get with the ingredients 2. and 3. feel free to pour a much larger amount (percentage) of the ingredient 3. in the mixture and not go by the ratio written on the product. the 0.5 nanometers particle hBN powder costs at least 230 dollars for 1kg btw. so you can have an idea that it's about 1/5 in the additive container, along with some oils. and i would say that you can't go wrong having 5% concentration (meaning 5x more than the usual concentration - compared to the amount of the product added to the gear oil) in the chain lube which would be much more than overpriced products would have.
mineral spirits and alcohols used in cleaning are dirt cheap and can be used in a small amount over and over again, have 3 plastic bottles with wide lids to shake the chain in. 2 bottles for the nonpolar solvent, 1 bottle for the alcohols. any remaining solvent (mainly alcohol which is volatile) left in the chain after pouring the first mixture (ingredients 2. and 3.) will be evaporated at the hot bath stage (ingredient 3.). one main reason to not apply wax with a solvent (like xylene - in case you would dislike the hot bath approach)... to have the chain ready to ride immediately and the lubricant solid. no need for stuff like xylene which does not evaporate that quickly btw.
take my advice and get some:
1. microcrystalline wax - one way to distinguish it... petroleum wax that is not white but has a creamy dark yellow colour;
2. quality synthetic GL4 gear oil (all the additives in the product are useful for point 1. and the base oils are perfectly compatible with point 1.);
3. hexagonal boron nitride (hBN) additive.
i won't give specific products, i don't sell nor give any producer free advertising. your chains will last much longer and you only need to buy all these things once as the amount of lube you will get mixing them is huge. getting the chain off the bike takes a few seconds once you get to understand you need to press on the quicklink laterally (as to bring them closer to each other and decrease the gap between them - not that the difference would be visible) before sliding the parts.
you can read what i wrote on the homebrew subject - apart from the generated flame - here:
https://www.bikeforums.net/22064889-post93.html
generally speaking what i suggest is having a hot wax bath with ingredient 1. but before you do the hot bath pour in the cleaned chain some small droplets of the mixture you get with the ingredients 2. and 3. feel free to pour a much larger amount (percentage) of the ingredient 3. in the mixture and not go by the ratio written on the product. the 0.5 nanometers particle hBN powder costs at least 230 dollars for 1kg btw. so you can have an idea that it's about 1/5 in the additive container, along with some oils. and i would say that you can't go wrong having 5% concentration (meaning 5x more than the usual concentration - compared to the amount of the product added to the gear oil) in the chain lube which would be much more than overpriced products would have.
mineral spirits and alcohols used in cleaning are dirt cheap and can be used in a small amount over and over again, have 3 plastic bottles with wide lids to shake the chain in. 2 bottles for the nonpolar solvent, 1 bottle for the alcohols. any remaining solvent (mainly alcohol which is volatile) left in the chain after pouring the first mixture (ingredients 2. and 3.) will be evaporated at the hot bath stage (ingredient 3.). one main reason to not apply wax with a solvent (like xylene - in case you would dislike the hot bath approach)... to have the chain ready to ride immediately and the lubricant solid. no need for stuff like xylene which does not evaporate that quickly btw.
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05-19-21, 08:16 AM
#5
Senior Member
Diesel fuel is actually a light oil that will attract dirt. It's not a good solvent for chain cleaning, if you don't want it to collect dust. Mineral spirits or naphtha are better. I use crown brand camp stove fuel from Walmart that costs about half as much as the other two solvents.
There seems to be no end to the complicated procedures that people come up with for hot waxing. I use a homemade paraffin based liquid lube. A simple cleaning in a container of camp stove fuel is all I use, but the chain needs ample time to dry before lubing. My lube is one part paraffin, 20-30% gear lube and 4-6 parts camp stove fuel. I melt the paraffin first, then pour it into the solvent and oil mix. It takes very little to lube a chain and doesn't leave most of the lube on the inner and outer plates, where it does no good. The flaking off that occurs is much less than a hot waxed chain.
The main drawback to this lube is it only remains at a water like viscosity at temps in the 70s and above. In a cool work space, it turns to a mush. Placing the applicator bottle in hot tap water returns the lube to a liquid quickly, but if the chain is also cold, the lube will return to a soft mush and not penetrate. I use a heat gun to warm the chain if necessary. Adding more solvent also lowers the useable temperature, but leaves less lubricant on the chain.
There seems to be no end to the complicated procedures that people come up with for hot waxing. I use a homemade paraffin based liquid lube. A simple cleaning in a container of camp stove fuel is all I use, but the chain needs ample time to dry before lubing. My lube is one part paraffin, 20-30% gear lube and 4-6 parts camp stove fuel. I melt the paraffin first, then pour it into the solvent and oil mix. It takes very little to lube a chain and doesn't leave most of the lube on the inner and outer plates, where it does no good. The flaking off that occurs is much less than a hot waxed chain.
The main drawback to this lube is it only remains at a water like viscosity at temps in the 70s and above. In a cool work space, it turns to a mush. Placing the applicator bottle in hot tap water returns the lube to a liquid quickly, but if the chain is also cold, the lube will return to a soft mush and not penetrate. I use a heat gun to warm the chain if necessary. Adding more solvent also lowers the useable temperature, but leaves less lubricant on the chain.
05-19-21, 09:13 AM
#6
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Good luck.
05-19-21, 03:18 PM
#7
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Thread Starter
Thanks for the answers.
I'm sure I don't apply the most efficient solution as others do here, but I lack the time for doing that. Getting over 10000 km from one chain with simple and fast commercial solutions is a reasonable compromise for me, especially that I do not target further gains of 1-3 watts. But I was surprised to see that "Muc off" dry lube wax, although appears to be clean and technically ok, seems to require re-applying after roughly 200 km. It adds further stress for somebody who hardly get time for rides and needs to "jump" fast on the bike.
Or, am I wrong? Should I test one application of "Muc off" dry lube wax for 1000 km, although the chain appears to be very "dry", after the first 200 km?
I'm sure I don't apply the most efficient solution as others do here, but I lack the time for doing that. Getting over 10000 km from one chain with simple and fast commercial solutions is a reasonable compromise for me, especially that I do not target further gains of 1-3 watts. But I was surprised to see that "Muc off" dry lube wax, although appears to be clean and technically ok, seems to require re-applying after roughly 200 km. It adds further stress for somebody who hardly get time for rides and needs to "jump" fast on the bike.
Or, am I wrong? Should I test one application of "Muc off" dry lube wax for 1000 km, although the chain appears to be very "dry", after the first 200 km?
05-19-21, 04:32 PM
#8
Senior Member
i prefer to have a watt more friction with a lubricant that minimizes chain wear very well, stays put and also does not need to be reapplied very often;
meaning it also keeps that low enough friction for a very long time compared to lubricants that need to be reapplied more often.
light chain lubrication will have much more friction after some hours of riding compared to the efficiency you would measure when chain is cleaned and freshly lubed. and when it comes to wax... you won't have a low friction and low wear for much time if you just use wax with no additives.
beeswax is much better than straight paraffin for example - at least 2x the price usually. one of the reason some folks go with a mixture having at least 20% beeswax. adding gear oil to the mixture would mean even more lubricant durability - it will work for a longer time. and if you add a thick enough amount of the hBN additive (at least 3x more than what is recommended to be added to gear or motor oil) ... that sort of homebrew will beat Squirt. just don't have more than 10% hBN concentration. any such product will have it in some carrier oils and the powder costs about 5x more than the formula which should mean that the dispersion has already less than 20% hBN.
almost all folks have no way to measure watts lost due to the nature of the chain lube used when riding. AND you cannot perceive a difference of 1-2 watts. the difference in riding speed is negligible: 34.12km/h vs 34.02km/h for 242W vs 240W rider output - clinchers, hoods position, zero wind speed.
if you would have a head wind speed of 0.16km/h (if that low figure can be called "wind") then you would have the same 0.1km/h reduction of speed as from 242W vs 240W.
that is why i prefer having a homebrew that has 5.5W lost due to friction instead of 4.5W which some folks measured for Squirt. i prefer to have the extra chain durability and also apply less frequently. Squirt is not the best lube when it comes to chain wear. i'd rather go with a homebrew that is cheaper and performs better. and i prefer to have the chain put in a hot bath. cleaning the chain is very fast once taken off the bike. first mineral spirits, then the alcohols mixture. methanol dissolves salts; isopropyl disolves mineral spirits. hot bath at the end makes sure there's no alcohols left and also no solvents from the homebrew left as they are quite volatile. Squirt on the other hand... once you apply it you need to let it dry for some time. the solvents don't evaporate that quickly if they are dissolved in the lubricant. and you don't want a thin lubricant but a thick one. if you are lazy and have more than one bike or don't ride too often then you could use that stuff.
but i prefer the hot bath and a homebrew. it can be quite safe and does not take that long. a timer set for 10 minutes to have water vapour from a slowly boiling pot transfer heat to the jar (jar having with lid, obviously) sitting above the water surface. i just need to boost the heat to bring the water to the boiling point in 1-2 minutes. no need for much water - the pot should have a lid on, obviously. it just happens that i have an induction stove which can be set with timer and a steady 200W - for the 10 minutes slow boil. but i could be just fine using a gas stove too.
i don't do this cooking thing very often (once every 400-500km i think) and i go about other business for those 10 minutes.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...253520ad64.jpg
meaning it also keeps that low enough friction for a very long time compared to lubricants that need to be reapplied more often.
light chain lubrication will have much more friction after some hours of riding compared to the efficiency you would measure when chain is cleaned and freshly lubed. and when it comes to wax... you won't have a low friction and low wear for much time if you just use wax with no additives.
beeswax is much better than straight paraffin for example - at least 2x the price usually. one of the reason some folks go with a mixture having at least 20% beeswax. adding gear oil to the mixture would mean even more lubricant durability - it will work for a longer time. and if you add a thick enough amount of the hBN additive (at least 3x more than what is recommended to be added to gear or motor oil) ... that sort of homebrew will beat Squirt. just don't have more than 10% hBN concentration. any such product will have it in some carrier oils and the powder costs about 5x more than the formula which should mean that the dispersion has already less than 20% hBN.
almost all folks have no way to measure watts lost due to the nature of the chain lube used when riding. AND you cannot perceive a difference of 1-2 watts. the difference in riding speed is negligible: 34.12km/h vs 34.02km/h for 242W vs 240W rider output - clinchers, hoods position, zero wind speed.
if you would have a head wind speed of 0.16km/h (if that low figure can be called "wind") then you would have the same 0.1km/h reduction of speed as from 242W vs 240W.
that is why i prefer having a homebrew that has 5.5W lost due to friction instead of 4.5W which some folks measured for Squirt. i prefer to have the extra chain durability and also apply less frequently. Squirt is not the best lube when it comes to chain wear. i'd rather go with a homebrew that is cheaper and performs better. and i prefer to have the chain put in a hot bath. cleaning the chain is very fast once taken off the bike. first mineral spirits, then the alcohols mixture. methanol dissolves salts; isopropyl disolves mineral spirits. hot bath at the end makes sure there's no alcohols left and also no solvents from the homebrew left as they are quite volatile. Squirt on the other hand... once you apply it you need to let it dry for some time. the solvents don't evaporate that quickly if they are dissolved in the lubricant. and you don't want a thin lubricant but a thick one. if you are lazy and have more than one bike or don't ride too often then you could use that stuff.
but i prefer the hot bath and a homebrew. it can be quite safe and does not take that long. a timer set for 10 minutes to have water vapour from a slowly boiling pot transfer heat to the jar (jar having with lid, obviously) sitting above the water surface. i just need to boost the heat to bring the water to the boiling point in 1-2 minutes. no need for much water - the pot should have a lid on, obviously. it just happens that i have an induction stove which can be set with timer and a steady 200W - for the 10 minutes slow boil. but i could be just fine using a gas stove too.
i don't do this cooking thing very often (once every 400-500km i think) and i go about other business for those 10 minutes.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...253520ad64.jpg
Last edited by adipe; 05-19-21 at 04:55 PM.
05-20-21, 10:06 AM
#9
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Due to temporary unavailability, I switched from “Atlantic” PTFE chain lube (a thin lube marketed for dry and wet conditions) to “Muc-off” dry lube wax PTFE for dry conditions. I can’t see performance differences for riding in dry weather. Although it attracts more particles (dust), Atlantic assures more than 10000 km chain usage (with deep cleaning every 1000 - 1500 km). I have no experience with “Muc off” in this respect, since I only used it for around 1000 km.
I clean my chains before they are installed and never clean them again...they don’t need it. I get what the average is. Most people would say I abuse my chains but if I get the same results with neglect, what do they (or you) get with all the pampering?
However, there might be another big difference between the two: “Atlantic” keeps a thin oily aspect on the chain and doesn’t need to be re-applied for 1000 – 1500 km. “Muc off” looks to disappear and to require re-lubing every 150 – 250 km. All above in dry weather (no rain at all).
Does “Muc-off” need to be reapplied so often, or am I wrong in my assessment? Also, will Diesel fuel clean (dissolve) worn “Muc off” from the chain?
Does “Muc-off” need to be reapplied so often, or am I wrong in my assessment? Also, will Diesel fuel clean (dissolve) worn “Muc off” from the chain?
See below on application. Diesel fuel isn’t the best solvent. It’s oily and doesn’t evaporate very quickly...if at all. Mineral spirits is less oily, evaporates quickly and doesn’t leave a residue. A cup of the stuff will clean dozens of chains of factory lubricant.
Thanks for the answers.
I'm sure I don't apply the most efficient solution as others do here, but I lack the time for doing that. Getting over 10000 km from one chain with simple and fast commercial solutions is a reasonable compromise for me, especially that I do not target further gains of 1-3 watts. But I was surprised to see that "Muc off" dry lube wax, although appears to be clean and technically ok, seems to require re-applying after roughly 200 km. It adds further stress for somebody who hardly get time for rides and needs to "jump" fast on the bike.
Or, am I wrong? Should I test one application of "Muc off" dry lube wax for 1000 km, although the chain appears to be very "dry", after the first 200 km?
I'm sure I don't apply the most efficient solution as others do here, but I lack the time for doing that. Getting over 10000 km from one chain with simple and fast commercial solutions is a reasonable compromise for me, especially that I do not target further gains of 1-3 watts. But I was surprised to see that "Muc off" dry lube wax, although appears to be clean and technically ok, seems to require re-applying after roughly 200 km. It adds further stress for somebody who hardly get time for rides and needs to "jump" fast on the bike.
Or, am I wrong? Should I test one application of "Muc off" dry lube wax for 1000 km, although the chain appears to be very "dry", after the first 200 km?
There is no lubricant that drastically increases (or decreases) chain life. Oil based lubricants and wax based lubricants are equal in their efficacy. One is just cleaner than the other.
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Last edited by cyccommute; 05-20-21 at 10:24 AM.
05-20-21, 10:09 AM
#10
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Nope. No harm done. But there’s no need for 90% of the work that people do to try and preserve a consumable chain. This guy goes way out on the “over doing it” limb.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
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05-20-21, 10:14 AM
#11
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i prefer to have a watt more friction with a lubricant that minimizes chain wear very well, stays put and also does not need to be reapplied very often;
meaning it also keeps that low enough friction for a very long time compared to lubricants that need to be reapplied more often.
light chain lubrication will have much more friction after some hours of riding compared to the efficiency you would measure when chain is cleaned and freshly lubed. and when it comes to wax... you won't have a low friction and low wear for much time if you just use wax with no additives.
beeswax is much better than straight paraffin for example - at least 2x the price usually. one of the reason some folks go with a mixture having at least 20% beeswax. adding gear oil to the mixture would mean even more lubricant durability - it will work for a longer time. and if you add a thick enough amount of the hBN additive (at least 3x more than what is recommended to be added to gear or motor oil) ... that sort of homebrew will beat Squirt. just don't have more than 10% hBN concentration. any such product will have it in some carrier oils and the powder costs about 5x more than the formula which should mean that the dispersion has already less than 20% hBN.
almost all folks have no way to measure watts lost due to the nature of the chain lube used when riding. AND you cannot perceive a difference of 1-2 watts. the difference in riding speed is negligible: 34.12km/h vs 34.02km/h for 242W vs 240W rider output - clinchers, hoods position, zero wind speed.
if you would have a head wind speed of 0.16km/h (if that low figure can be called "wind") then you would have the same 0.1km/h reduction of speed as from 242W vs 240W.
that is why i prefer having a homebrew that has 5.5W lost due to friction instead of 4.5W which some folks measured for Squirt. i prefer to have the extra chain durability and also apply less frequently. Squirt is not the best lube when it comes to chain wear. i'd rather go with a homebrew that is cheaper and performs better. and i prefer to have the chain put in a hot bath. cleaning the chain is very fast once taken off the bike. first mineral spirits, then the alcohols mixture. methanol dissolves salts; isopropyl disolves mineral spirits. hot bath at the end makes sure there's no alcohols left and also no solvents from the homebrew left as they are quite volatile. Squirt on the other hand... once you apply it you need to let it dry for some time. the solvents don't evaporate that quickly if they are dissolved in the lubricant. and you don't want a thin lubricant but a thick one. if you are lazy and have more than one bike or don't ride too often then you could use that stuff.
but i prefer the hot bath and a homebrew. it can be quite safe and does not take that long. a timer set for 10 minutes to have water vapour from a slowly boiling pot transfer heat to the jar (jar having with lid, obviously) sitting above the water surface. i just need to boost the heat to bring the water to the boiling point in 1-2 minutes. no need for much water - the pot should have a lid on, obviously. it just happens that i have an induction stove which can be set with timer and a steady 200W - for the 10 minutes slow boil. but i could be just fine using a gas stove too.
i don't do this cooking thing very often (once every 400-500km i think) and i go about other business for those 10 minutes.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...253520ad64.jpg
meaning it also keeps that low enough friction for a very long time compared to lubricants that need to be reapplied more often.
light chain lubrication will have much more friction after some hours of riding compared to the efficiency you would measure when chain is cleaned and freshly lubed. and when it comes to wax... you won't have a low friction and low wear for much time if you just use wax with no additives.
beeswax is much better than straight paraffin for example - at least 2x the price usually. one of the reason some folks go with a mixture having at least 20% beeswax. adding gear oil to the mixture would mean even more lubricant durability - it will work for a longer time. and if you add a thick enough amount of the hBN additive (at least 3x more than what is recommended to be added to gear or motor oil) ... that sort of homebrew will beat Squirt. just don't have more than 10% hBN concentration. any such product will have it in some carrier oils and the powder costs about 5x more than the formula which should mean that the dispersion has already less than 20% hBN.
almost all folks have no way to measure watts lost due to the nature of the chain lube used when riding. AND you cannot perceive a difference of 1-2 watts. the difference in riding speed is negligible: 34.12km/h vs 34.02km/h for 242W vs 240W rider output - clinchers, hoods position, zero wind speed.
if you would have a head wind speed of 0.16km/h (if that low figure can be called "wind") then you would have the same 0.1km/h reduction of speed as from 242W vs 240W.
that is why i prefer having a homebrew that has 5.5W lost due to friction instead of 4.5W which some folks measured for Squirt. i prefer to have the extra chain durability and also apply less frequently. Squirt is not the best lube when it comes to chain wear. i'd rather go with a homebrew that is cheaper and performs better. and i prefer to have the chain put in a hot bath. cleaning the chain is very fast once taken off the bike. first mineral spirits, then the alcohols mixture. methanol dissolves salts; isopropyl disolves mineral spirits. hot bath at the end makes sure there's no alcohols left and also no solvents from the homebrew left as they are quite volatile. Squirt on the other hand... once you apply it you need to let it dry for some time. the solvents don't evaporate that quickly if they are dissolved in the lubricant. and you don't want a thin lubricant but a thick one. if you are lazy and have more than one bike or don't ride too often then you could use that stuff.
but i prefer the hot bath and a homebrew. it can be quite safe and does not take that long. a timer set for 10 minutes to have water vapour from a slowly boiling pot transfer heat to the jar (jar having with lid, obviously) sitting above the water surface. i just need to boost the heat to bring the water to the boiling point in 1-2 minutes. no need for much water - the pot should have a lid on, obviously. it just happens that i have an induction stove which can be set with timer and a steady 200W - for the 10 minutes slow boil. but i could be just fine using a gas stove too.
i don't do this cooking thing very often (once every 400-500km i think) and i go about other business for those 10 minutes.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...253520ad64.jpg
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
05-20-21, 04:18 PM
#12
Senior Member
Thread Starter
But it is also true that I had less than 150 km rides in rain during this period and I ride in a normal environment (no excessive sand, salt from marine area, etc). And it is about a road bike, not a mountain bike.
Diesel doesn't look as the best alternative for cleaning, as it never dries, so it somehow interacts with chain lube after cleaning, but it is still the cheapest and easiest to find. It is easy to have one chain in use for 1000 km with only one lube application, while a second chain stays submerged in 200-300 g of Diesel for deep cleaning.
05-20-21, 08:06 PM
#13
Mad bike riding scientist
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10000 km is real. I am now at 35000 km with the second pair of chains and they are far to reach "0.075 mm" wear on the caliper, so I shall exceed 40000 km for sure with 2 pair of chains. I always changed chains well before reaching "0.1 mm" on caliper and my rings and cogs are still in a very good shape.
But it is also true that I had less than 150 km rides in rain during this period and I ride in a normal environment (no excessive sand, salt from marine area, etc). And it is about a road bike, not a mountain bike.
But it is also true that I had less than 150 km rides in rain during this period and I ride in a normal environment (no excessive sand, salt from marine area, etc). And it is about a road bike, not a mountain bike.
Diesel doesn't look as the best alternative for cleaning, as it never dries, so it somehow interacts with chain lube after cleaning, but it is still the cheapest and easiest to find. It is easy to have one chain in use for 1000 km with only one lube application, while a second chain stays submerged in 200-300 g of Diesel for deep cleaning.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
05-20-21, 08:25 PM
#14
Junior Member
I don't really care about the cost of replacing a chain but, I do like to keep my stuff running in perfectly at all times. The green Muc-Off Ceramic lube ticks all of the boxes for me. Lasts quite a bit longer than the yellow Muc-Off Dry lube and keeps the drive train nice and quiet. I usually pick up a new bottle at the beginning of each season and I'll have at least a 1/4 of the bottle left at the end and that's servicing both of my bikes
05-21-21, 12:59 AM
#15
Senior Member
Diesel doesn't look as the best alternative for cleaning, as it never dries, so it somehow interacts with chain lube after cleaning, but it is still the cheapest and easiest to find. It is easy to have one chain in use for 1000 km with only one lube application, while a second chain stays submerged in 200-300 g of Diesel for deep cleaning.
no need to let the chain submerged for a long time in diesel. just shake it as in a washing machine (centrifuge) using some plastic bottles with lids wide enough.
rectangular shape would be preferred. i don't need to shake for more than 5-10 seconds at one time and i do it twice - one more dirty wash (recycling solvent) and the second is the cleaner one. so it's about 15 total seconds of shaking one chain.
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05-21-21, 03:26 AM
#16
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I routinely get 10,000 miles out of dura ace chains on my long wheel base recumbent. I routinely go 4,000 miles on such chains on uprights. I never let them wear out, they are replaced well before reaching accepted limits. The correct chain lube depends on conditions and also the owner's willingness to do maintenance.
Chains are cheap. Rings and cassettes are expensive. The rings on one of my cranksets are no longer available, so, chain maintenance is more important to me than the trivial cost of the chain or the extra watts.
Efficiency testing as done by Friction Facts is not as interesting to me as the testing done by Zero Friction in Australia.
Chains are cheap. Rings and cassettes are expensive. The rings on one of my cranksets are no longer available, so, chain maintenance is more important to me than the trivial cost of the chain or the extra watts.
Efficiency testing as done by Friction Facts is not as interesting to me as the testing done by Zero Friction in Australia.
