IcemanYQQ

I have worn out my Colngao Master, over 30,000kms, and a some rust has helped to finish the job. I am 6'2", and about 200lbs. I am a strong rider, Cat. 3, seldom race, enjoy hill climbs (self-punishment), long rides 100 miles, and maybe a time trial once or twice a year.

Is there any real difference between the two grades of Titanium. I am looking at the Vortex vs. Tuscany, and the Merlin 6.4 vs. 3-2.5. Price is not an issue, although I won't spend the extra if I don't need too, I will if a non-pro will notice a big difference in the two rides, if not, there is no sense in wasting money.

brianallan

how is it worn out, and is it for sale!

brianallan

and I have heard ti is a bad material for heavy riders. it has more flex than steel and so when you put a big fellow on it like yourself it might feel kind of squishy : )

IcemanYQQ

No, it is not for sale. It's eight years old, and seen better days

IcemanYQQ

Thanks, that is one of the things I have heard, but I have also read that in recent years, manufacturers have dealt with that problem. I'm wondering if one is noticeably stiffer than the other.

RiPHRaPH

I ride a Lightspeed Ultimate, which is 6/4 in the bottom bracket area and 3/2.5 in all other places.
I can definitely tell a difference between the 6/4 in the bottom bracket area and the relative flex of 3/2 in the Lightspeed Classic. I really felt the difference when trying both models with comparable wheels, tires, psi, seatpost, etc.
I am 185lbs and have seen and heard the same thing from others.
(i am cat5)

iansir

In terms of stiffness, 6/4 is 7-8% more stiff than 3/2.5. That's not even noticeable. However, 6/4 is quite a bit stronger (maybe 20%) which allows for the frame to be designed differently to take this into account, providing a more stiff ride. So it won't necessarily come down to which material will work best for a larger rider, but more to which frameset will work best. The only way to tell is with some test rides.

Paulus

The new Tuscany is much beefier than the Classic though. The tubes look like oversized Aluminium as far as size goes whereas the ones on the classic look more like old school steel. I wouldn't have thought flex would be an issue.

H1449-6

Any material (with the possible exception of bamboo) can be made into a stiff or compliant frame.

Example:

Aluminum: stiff (Klein and Cannondale); compliant/whippy: Vitus, old Alan

Stiffness is largely a function of tubing diameter and shape. Most newer Ti frames, particularly in the larger sizes, have an oversized down tube, which is one of the key design elements that will lend greater stiffness.

Thylacine

I think I'm qualified to respond to this one.

There is no right or wrong material for your height, weight or abilities. It's how the bike is designed to take into account these factors. You don't ride a tube, you ride a frame, so a frame of either material will be fine if it's designed right.

I'm completely biased of course, but I don't understand why you'd want to spend such a huge chunk of change on an off-the-shelf bike, when for the same price you can get custom. The problem is exacerbated when it comes to us big guys too (I'm 6ft 3ins, 205lbs) - most off the shelf bikes in our size have atrocious geometry that is far from optimal. I know this because it was one of the contibuting factors of me starting this business!

What is your budget for the frame and forks or complete bike? You mention you only race every once and a while, so is this going to be your only bike?

H1449-6

I don't see a red star next to your name. Is it possible that you have posted 2,600 plus mostly commercial messages on this board, and have a link to your company in your signature, all without paying a measly $25?

I can't imagine this; you must have paid some tribute to Joe.

pelotonracer

Check out the Douglas frames from Colorado Cyclist (www.coloradocyclist.com). They have 3/2.5 & 6/4 frames that are virtually identical to the Litespeeds, made in the USA, & are about half the price.

As for the difference, I'd say go for 6/4 if you can afford it. If you get a 3/2.5, you'll spend a long time thinking, "maybe I should have gotten the stiffer, better one..."

IcemanYQQ

As stated in my earlier post, I ride a Colnago Master X~Lite. I never said I was getting a stock bike, I am getting custom fit for either the Merlin or the Litespeed, it only costs an extra $500, money I think that will be well spent. The new 3/2.5 Tuscany has very oversize tubes with aggressively shaped tubing. I think that will help in the stiffness department. I will go and ride both next week, I have to drive 5 hours to the closest Litespeed dealer.

Budget is not an issue, and this is not my only bike, I have a cyclecross bike that doubles as a trainer and touring bike. I have a Cat. 3 licence, I just don't like racing crits and circuit races. I have all the components, I currently have Record 9sp Carbon. The only new purchases will be the new Carbon Cranks, BB, Headset, Seatpost, and Front Derailer, all stuff that wont transfer due to the differences in the bikes.

If I don't like the ride of the Ti bikes, then I will probably just get a C50, or President, but I have always wanted a Ti bike.

IcemanYQQ

Thanks, I have looked at those, but I don't live in the USA, and only want to buy a bike that I can get in Canada.

Blastinbob

Talk to Tom Kellog at Spectrum cycles https://www.spectrum-cycles.com/ He will design the bike for you and Merlin will build it. Give him a call he's a super guy and won't steer you wrong.

Stickney

I am 6'3" and 250 and ride and '05 Litespeed Tuscany. One of the reasons I chose it was a discussion from this website (See link) about the relative merits of 3/2.5 vs 6/4 titanium: https://www.bikesportmichigan.com/rev...uscany03.shtml

I think the technology might be there for extruding 6/4 titanium now though, I don't know. Do I think my bike is flexy? Maybe, but it sure is comfy. I previously owned an aluminum TREK, so I was looking for more compliance.

yakes_md

Speaking of Spectrum, here's a link to an article discussing the relative merits of 6/2 vs, 3/2.5

https://www.spectrum-cycles.com/624.htm

FWIW - I am 6'2", 200lbs and ride a 2004 Litespeed Teramo (3/2.5). I don't race, but I do have to chase my faster buddies from time to time. I haven't noticed much flex in the frame.

iansir

I believe Tom Kellogg has noted that what he wrote there is kind of old news now...there have been improvements, such as seamless 6/4 tubing. I mean, he is pushing 6/4 frames a lot now...take a look at the new Merlin Works line.

darkmother

Ok, I'll throw in my $0.02 here. I am almost exactly your size, and ride 3/2.5 Ti frame. I also really mash, and like to climb out of the saddle pushing bigger gears. My frame-a custom Habanero cross, is the stiffest of all of my road bikes in the bottom bracket-and is also the stiffest road frame I have ever ridden.

The idea that Ti bikes are flexy is a reputation that has it's roots in the first generation Ti frames. The first Ti bikes, like really old Merlins, were made of aircraft hydraulic Ti tube, which I assume was available in small diameters with relatively thick walls. If you've seen one of those old bikes, they are very similar to steel frames in terms of tube diameter used-like ~1" diameter main tubes . As a result, they were roughly 1/2 half the stiffness of a comparable steel frame. Thus the reputation.

Current Ti frames use tube diameters that much larger, and as a result can be very stiff. My frame uses larger diameter tubes than many aluminum bikes. Keep in mind that for geometrically similar parts, ie the same physical size and shape steel is stiffer than Ti which is stiffer than aluminum. Thus, a 4 lb Ti frame, using the same tube diameters, will be stiffer than a 4 lb aluminum frame.

I'd say don't worry too much about the alloy used. Test ride the bikes. Also remember that lots of things besides the frame can make a bike feel stiff or flexable....like wheels, bar and stem.

IcemanYQQ

Thanks for all the comments. I can't wait to ride one on Monday and make a decision.

patentcad

I ride a Cannondale Six13 for more competitive rides and an Ibis Titanium Road (3/2.5 butted Ti) the other half of the time, particularly for longer rides. But I weigh 165lbs. If I were 200lbs I'd seriously lean to the CF/Six13 type of bicycle - simply because I'd be a bit skittish about Ti being too mushy. That may be one reason you don't see much Ti in the pro peloton. Floyd Landis reportedly generates TWELVE HUNDRED WATTS in a sprint. I would guess a Merlin might feel like a wet noddle under that much wattage. And the bigger/heavier you are, the more crucial this factor becomes.

I'm only throwing this out there because you're a strong rider - a Cat 3 racer who's 200lbs - and it's a significant point to consider. I also realize that there's nothing quite as nice as a Ti bicycle - but in my opinion the comfort/responsiveness does come at a price in performance terms. I can feel it in my riding (I get to 'A-B' these bikes on a daily basis). Particularly on hills/sprints. But I often PREFER the feel of the Ibis Ti, especially on rougher roads/longer rides. Love the Cdale, but nothing is quite like Ti.

Bottom line is that the Ibis Ti Road gives up SOME performance to the Cannondale (or insert name of favorite CF racing bike HERE _____) - but I'd say it's that 5% edge. But every now and then that 5% is VERY nice to have on your side, all that 'it's all in the motor, why don't YOU Lose 5 lbs off your butt' stuff aside. Um... I already DID lose the 5lbs, and I've been working on my motor for a long time now.

Thylacine

No, it's actually not possible. Most of my posts are total drivel on The Aussie Thread, but thanks for the personal interest.

However, if someone has a question about material or ride qualities or whatever, I like to contribute - especially considering I'm 34, the same height and weight as the OP, AND I've been riding roadbikes all my life. The fact that I'm in a good position to contibute is just a bonus as far as I'm concerned. It's like you get the benefit of consulting a pro consultant, minus the bill. Everybody wins.

Don't like what I have to say? Simple - don't read it.

ViperZ

I'm 5'11 & 200 Lbs. I ride a 2003 Tuscany (3/2.5) and it is stiff enough for me and my big pipes... As others have said here, frame design is more important than actual material in this case.

The Tuscany is a fine machine, and you will not be dissapointed

CycleFreakLS

Ti is not mushy. I don't think there's anybody who'd say the Vortex ride is mushy. Also, Ti not in the pros ... main driven by economics. To supply a team with frames means the framebuilder needs to supply 20+ riders with 3+ frames each plus at least one TT frame. That's a huge dollar investment.

For the orig poster, there are plenty of frames from Litespeed, Merlin, Seven, Serotta, Hab., etc. that will probably fit the bill ... or several, several BILLs (as in Ben Franklin that is).

ViperZ

Titanium didn't seem to bother Robbie McEwan, a very strong sprinter...

In 2002 he rode a Litespeed and won:

2 stages of Paris Nice
2 stages in the Giro d'Italia
2 stages of the Tour de France
Green jersey in the Tour de France