Nuovo Record RD rebuild questions
02-08-24, 06:57 PM
#52
Senior Member
Okay, late to the party, but a superate post about saddles on sale let me to the Boulder Bike website.
In a section on Freewheels Regina America, to be specific) , they say “ Campy rear derailleur's lower pivot cage/cover assembly can be assembled in 4 possible ways to use up to a 28t”
Following what’s been posted above, , I see how you can assemble NR derailleur 2 ways, by changing placement of tension spring. What are the other two ways?
In a section on Freewheels Regina America, to be specific) , they say “ Campy rear derailleur's lower pivot cage/cover assembly can be assembled in 4 possible ways to use up to a 28t”
Following what’s been posted above, , I see how you can assemble NR derailleur 2 ways, by changing placement of tension spring. What are the other two ways?
02-08-24, 09:10 PM
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Mr. Spadoni,
I think they are using both holes of the cage plate and both holes on the wrap up body (part 812A in the diagram) to come up with the four positions. Smiles, MH
I think they are using both holes of the cage plate and both holes on the wrap up body (part 812A in the diagram) to come up with the four positions. Smiles, MH
02-09-24, 04:08 AM
#54
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That screw doesn't come into play in normal use since it's just moving through air. Only at the extreme where it hits against the lower knuckle does it do anything. Yes, if you assemble it wrong, it hits too soon and robs you of some of the useful range of travel, but there's no reason to do that other than by accident. There's no upside or benefit to assembling it that way, so it's simply a mistake.
Easiest way to prove the stop screw 812/1A doesn't do anything in normal use is to remove it. The mech works perfectly, and it even removes the possibility of it reducing your useful range by hitting too soon.
The only downside to removing the screw is fast wheel changes. Without the screw, the cage over-rotates when you take the wheel out, so you have to grab the grimy cage with your hand and wind it up a little before putting the wheel in. That only adds maybe two or three seconds, which is nothing at all to the 100% of us who aren't getting a fast wheel change in a race. (yeah right, with a 50+ year old derailer on your bike? What kind of race are you in??) Carry a rag or alcohol wipe to get the chain grime off your hand and you're good to go.
Not that I seriously recommend removing it; I leave it on, on my bikes. But I make sure it isn't stopping my cage rotation too soon.
So, we're only left with the two choices of spring pre-load, which do affect the function, but only a little. In most cases either spring position will work. With a dual-spring mech like the Juy Simplex of the same era as the Record and NR, the balance between the strength of the two springs matters a lot. But with the NR, with no spring in the upper pivot, the parallelogram always stays at the same angle, doesn't float fore and aft, so the lower spring tension only affects the amount of sag in the lower run of the chain. It doesn't affect what size of freewheel you can use, at all. With a Simplex or any other mech with a "B-spring", it matters, but not with NR.
So my basic rule when assembling is: line up the two spring holes in the cage with the two in the 812/A spring cover, so the rotation-stop screw ends up in the right place. Then put the spring in whichever of those holes you want, it doesn't matter much.
If you want a wider gear range than a NR is comfortable with, you can fiddle with sliding the wheel back in horizontal dropouts, which helps, and then fine-tune the chain length to get it to go into all gears without crunching anything, but the limits are still pretty severe compared to most other brands/models of derailer. With a big freewheel (I've used up to 31t), the allowable range in front is quite narrow. If you'll allow the chain to hang slack in small/small then you can eke out a little more. If you'll allow large/large to actually break or bend things if you forget and shift into that gear, you can eke out still more, but obviously I'm not a fan of that "trick". You will forget one day and shift into the forbidden gear.
The #1 thing you can do to a NR to get a wider gear range is put a Rally cage on it. Totally easy and not even expensive, now that repro Rally cages are available from Merry Sales.
Well, on one of mine, I grafted on the top knuckle from a Rally, but then it's not really a NR anymore, it's just a Rally with a NR front parallelogram link:
No Rallys were harmed to make this! This was a NOS replacement top knuckle, that had never been assembled into a derailer until it got riveted into this NR. The NR was junk, from its top knuckle being broken, and this was literally the only usable top knuckle I had available. Works great though!
I think Campy sent out some number of replacement Rally top knuckles to replace the first-generation ones that all-too-often broke where they neck down just below the attachment bolt. This one, which I call 2nd generation (the terminology is controversial!) has the little extra web of metal that makes it a tiny bit stronger. I have owned 3 of those replacement knuckles over the years, but I sold or gave away one, so I'm down to this and one more that's still unused, waiting for the right project.
Mark B
Last edited by bulgie; 02-09-24 at 04:13 AM.
02-09-24, 11:06 AM
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Yeah calling that 4 positions is wishful thinking. The 812/A only does one thing (OK 2 if you include keeping dirt out); it sets the position of the cage-rotation stop screw 812/1A.
That screw doesn't come into play in normal use since it's just moving through air. Only at the extreme where it hits against the lower knuckle does it do anything. Yes, if you assemble it wrong, it hits too soon and robs you of some of the useful range of travel, but there's no reason to do that other than by accident. There's no upside or benefit to assembling it that way, so it's simply a mistake.
Easiest way to prove the stop screw 812/1A doesn't do anything in normal use is to remove it. The mech works perfectly, and it even removes the possibility of it reducing your useful range by hitting too soon.
The only downside to removing the screw is fast wheel changes. Without the screw, the cage over-rotates when you take the wheel out, so you have to grab the grimy cage with your hand and wind it up a little before putting the wheel in. That only adds maybe two or three seconds, which is nothing at all to the 100% of us who aren't getting a fast wheel change in a race. (yeah right, with a 50+ year old derailer on your bike? What kind of race are you in??) Carry a rag or alcohol wipe to get the chain grime off your hand and you're good to go.
Not that I seriously recommend removing it; I leave it on, on my bikes. But I make sure it isn't stopping my cage rotation too soon.
So, we're only left with the two choices of spring pre-load, which do affect the function, but only a little. In most cases either spring position will work. With a dual-spring mech like the Juy Simplex of the same era as the Record and NR, the balance between the strength of the two springs matters a lot. But with the NR, with no spring in the upper pivot, the parallelogram always stays at the same angle, doesn't float fore and aft, so the lower spring tension only affects the amount of sag in the lower run of the chain. It doesn't affect what size of freewheel you can use, at all. With a Simplex or any other mech with a "B-spring", it matters, but not with NR.
So my basic rule when assembling is: line up the two spring holes in the cage with the two in the 812/A spring cover, so the rotation-stop screw ends up in the right place. Then put the spring in whichever of those holes you want, it doesn't matter much.
If you want a wider gear range than a NR is comfortable with, you can fiddle with sliding the wheel back in horizontal dropouts, which helps, and then fine-tune the chain length to get it to go into all gears without crunching anything, but the limits are still pretty severe compared to most other brands/models of derailer. With a big freewheel (I've used up to 31t), the allowable range in front is quite narrow. If you'll allow the chain to hang slack in small/small then you can eke out a little more. If you'll allow large/large to actually break or bend things if you forget and shift into that gear, you can eke out still more, but obviously I'm not a fan of that "trick". You will forget one day and shift into the forbidden gear.
The #1 thing you can do to a NR to get a wider gear range is put a Rally cage on it. Totally easy and not even expensive, now that repro Rally cages are available from Merry Sales.
Well, on one of mine, I grafted on the top knuckle from a Rally, but then it's not really a NR anymore, it's just a Rally with a NR front parallelogram link:
No Rallys were harmed to make this! This was a NOS replacement top knuckle, that had never been assembled into a derailer until it got riveted into this NR. The NR was junk, from its top knuckle being broken, and this was literally the only usable top knuckle I had available. Works great though!
I think Campy sent out some number of replacement Rally top knuckles to replace the first-generation ones that all-too-often broke where they neck down just below the attachment bolt. This one, which I call 2nd generation (the terminology is controversial!) has the little extra web of metal that makes it a tiny bit stronger. I have owned 3 of those replacement knuckles over the years, but I sold or gave away one, so I'm down to this and one more that's still unused, waiting for the right project.
Mark B
That screw doesn't come into play in normal use since it's just moving through air. Only at the extreme where it hits against the lower knuckle does it do anything. Yes, if you assemble it wrong, it hits too soon and robs you of some of the useful range of travel, but there's no reason to do that other than by accident. There's no upside or benefit to assembling it that way, so it's simply a mistake.
Easiest way to prove the stop screw 812/1A doesn't do anything in normal use is to remove it. The mech works perfectly, and it even removes the possibility of it reducing your useful range by hitting too soon.
The only downside to removing the screw is fast wheel changes. Without the screw, the cage over-rotates when you take the wheel out, so you have to grab the grimy cage with your hand and wind it up a little before putting the wheel in. That only adds maybe two or three seconds, which is nothing at all to the 100% of us who aren't getting a fast wheel change in a race. (yeah right, with a 50+ year old derailer on your bike? What kind of race are you in??) Carry a rag or alcohol wipe to get the chain grime off your hand and you're good to go.
Not that I seriously recommend removing it; I leave it on, on my bikes. But I make sure it isn't stopping my cage rotation too soon.
So, we're only left with the two choices of spring pre-load, which do affect the function, but only a little. In most cases either spring position will work. With a dual-spring mech like the Juy Simplex of the same era as the Record and NR, the balance between the strength of the two springs matters a lot. But with the NR, with no spring in the upper pivot, the parallelogram always stays at the same angle, doesn't float fore and aft, so the lower spring tension only affects the amount of sag in the lower run of the chain. It doesn't affect what size of freewheel you can use, at all. With a Simplex or any other mech with a "B-spring", it matters, but not with NR.
So my basic rule when assembling is: line up the two spring holes in the cage with the two in the 812/A spring cover, so the rotation-stop screw ends up in the right place. Then put the spring in whichever of those holes you want, it doesn't matter much.
If you want a wider gear range than a NR is comfortable with, you can fiddle with sliding the wheel back in horizontal dropouts, which helps, and then fine-tune the chain length to get it to go into all gears without crunching anything, but the limits are still pretty severe compared to most other brands/models of derailer. With a big freewheel (I've used up to 31t), the allowable range in front is quite narrow. If you'll allow the chain to hang slack in small/small then you can eke out a little more. If you'll allow large/large to actually break or bend things if you forget and shift into that gear, you can eke out still more, but obviously I'm not a fan of that "trick". You will forget one day and shift into the forbidden gear.
The #1 thing you can do to a NR to get a wider gear range is put a Rally cage on it. Totally easy and not even expensive, now that repro Rally cages are available from Merry Sales.
Well, on one of mine, I grafted on the top knuckle from a Rally, but then it's not really a NR anymore, it's just a Rally with a NR front parallelogram link:
No Rallys were harmed to make this! This was a NOS replacement top knuckle, that had never been assembled into a derailer until it got riveted into this NR. The NR was junk, from its top knuckle being broken, and this was literally the only usable top knuckle I had available. Works great though!
I think Campy sent out some number of replacement Rally top knuckles to replace the first-generation ones that all-too-often broke where they neck down just below the attachment bolt. This one, which I call 2nd generation (the terminology is controversial!) has the little extra web of metal that makes it a tiny bit stronger. I have owned 3 of those replacement knuckles over the years, but I sold or gave away one, so I'm down to this and one more that's still unused, waiting for the right project.
Mark B
The original upper “knuckle” I thought was too thin under the pivot. And why did they not make it from aluminum? Zamac was just I thought not a good structural material.
‘but this was the era where Campagnolo was disinterested in the tourist. Or marginal interested.
02-09-24, 11:55 AM
#56
Senior Member
Yeah calling that 4 positions is wishful thinking. The 812/A only does one thing (OK 2 if you include keeping dirt out); it sets the position of the cage-rotation stop screw 812/1A.
That screw doesn't come into play in normal use since it's just moving through air. Only at the extreme where it hits against the lower knuckle does it do anything. Yes, if you assemble it wrong, it hits too soon and robs you of some of the useful range of travel, but there's no reason to do that other than by accident. There's no upside or benefit to assembling it that way, so it's simply a mistake.
Easiest way to prove the stop screw 812/1A doesn't do anything in normal use is to remove it. The mech works perfectly, and it even removes the possibility of it reducing your useful range by hitting too soon.
The only downside to removing the screw is fast wheel changes. Without the screw, the cage over-rotates when you take the wheel out, so you have to grab the grimy cage with your hand and wind it up a little before putting the wheel in. That only adds maybe two or three seconds, which is nothing at all to the 100% of us who aren't getting a fast wheel change in a race. (yeah right, with a 50+ year old derailer on your bike? What kind of race are you in??) Carry a rag or alcohol wipe to get the chain grime off your hand and you're good to go.
Not that I seriously recommend removing it; I leave it on, on my bikes. But I make sure it isn't stopping my cage rotation too soon.
So, we're only left with the two choices of spring pre-load, which do affect the function, but only a little. In most cases either spring position will work. With a dual-spring mech like the Juy Simplex of the same era as the Record and NR, the balance between the strength of the two springs matters a lot. But with the NR, with no spring in the upper pivot, the parallelogram always stays at the same angle, doesn't float fore and aft, so the lower spring tension only affects the amount of sag in the lower run of the chain. It doesn't affect what size of freewheel you can use, at all. With a Simplex or any other mech with a "B-spring", it matters, but not with NR.
So my basic rule when assembling is: line up the two spring holes in the cage with the two in the 812/A spring cover, so the rotation-stop screw ends up in the right place. Then put the spring in whichever of those holes you want, it doesn't matter much.
If you want a wider gear range than a NR is comfortable with, you can fiddle with sliding the wheel back in horizontal dropouts, which helps, and then fine-tune the chain length to get it to go into all gears without crunching anything, but the limits are still pretty severe compared to most other brands/models of derailer. With a big freewheel (I've used up to 31t), the allowable range in front is quite narrow. If you'll allow the chain to hang slack in small/small then you can eke out a little more. If you'll allow large/large to actually break or bend things if you forget and shift into that gear, you can eke out still more, but obviously I'm not a fan of that "trick". You will forget one day and shift into the forbidden gear.
The #1 thing you can do to a NR to get a wider gear range is put a Rally cage on it. Totally easy and not even expensive, now that repro Rally cages are available from Merry Sales.
Mark B
That screw doesn't come into play in normal use since it's just moving through air. Only at the extreme where it hits against the lower knuckle does it do anything. Yes, if you assemble it wrong, it hits too soon and robs you of some of the useful range of travel, but there's no reason to do that other than by accident. There's no upside or benefit to assembling it that way, so it's simply a mistake.
Easiest way to prove the stop screw 812/1A doesn't do anything in normal use is to remove it. The mech works perfectly, and it even removes the possibility of it reducing your useful range by hitting too soon.
The only downside to removing the screw is fast wheel changes. Without the screw, the cage over-rotates when you take the wheel out, so you have to grab the grimy cage with your hand and wind it up a little before putting the wheel in. That only adds maybe two or three seconds, which is nothing at all to the 100% of us who aren't getting a fast wheel change in a race. (yeah right, with a 50+ year old derailer on your bike? What kind of race are you in??) Carry a rag or alcohol wipe to get the chain grime off your hand and you're good to go.
Not that I seriously recommend removing it; I leave it on, on my bikes. But I make sure it isn't stopping my cage rotation too soon.
So, we're only left with the two choices of spring pre-load, which do affect the function, but only a little. In most cases either spring position will work. With a dual-spring mech like the Juy Simplex of the same era as the Record and NR, the balance between the strength of the two springs matters a lot. But with the NR, with no spring in the upper pivot, the parallelogram always stays at the same angle, doesn't float fore and aft, so the lower spring tension only affects the amount of sag in the lower run of the chain. It doesn't affect what size of freewheel you can use, at all. With a Simplex or any other mech with a "B-spring", it matters, but not with NR.
So my basic rule when assembling is: line up the two spring holes in the cage with the two in the 812/A spring cover, so the rotation-stop screw ends up in the right place. Then put the spring in whichever of those holes you want, it doesn't matter much.
If you want a wider gear range than a NR is comfortable with, you can fiddle with sliding the wheel back in horizontal dropouts, which helps, and then fine-tune the chain length to get it to go into all gears without crunching anything, but the limits are still pretty severe compared to most other brands/models of derailer. With a big freewheel (I've used up to 31t), the allowable range in front is quite narrow. If you'll allow the chain to hang slack in small/small then you can eke out a little more. If you'll allow large/large to actually break or bend things if you forget and shift into that gear, you can eke out still more, but obviously I'm not a fan of that "trick". You will forget one day and shift into the forbidden gear.
The #1 thing you can do to a NR to get a wider gear range is put a Rally cage on it. Totally easy and not even expensive, now that repro Rally cages are available from Merry Sales.
Mark B
02-11-24, 06:04 PM
#57
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Andy, and Tiger,
The spacers are like a Delrin plastic and pretty hard to just file down, or even cut off. I put a dowel or bolt through the center and use a sanding belt to sand down to just the spacer size. You can also use steel washers, but since Chaser provided the extra bits It is easier to just cut them down to size. Smiles, MH
The spacers are like a Delrin plastic and pretty hard to just file down, or even cut off. I put a dowel or bolt through the center and use a sanding belt to sand down to just the spacer size. You can also use steel washers, but since Chaser provided the extra bits It is easier to just cut them down to size. Smiles, MH
To recap: Independently and simultaneous to this thread I acquired a set of red Chaser jockey wheels for my Paramount and installed them using the bushings that brought the width closest to the width of the existing pulleys which are a set of inexpensive Shimanos, not original Campagnolo. I don't remember what the width was. Then I saw this thread and wondered, am I missing a millimeter? Does it matter? I didn't change anything and took the bike out for 20 hilly miles, working the full 14-32 (I think, maybe it's 34) Ultra-6 range. It shifted flawlessly. I'm leaving it alone. Reminds me of this classic ad, voice over some years ago by my son:
__________________
1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport
1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport
02-12-24, 07:53 AM
#58
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No Rallys were harmed to make this! This was a NOS replacement top knuckle, that had never been assembled into a derailer until it got riveted into this NR. The NR was junk, from its top knuckle being broken, and this was literally the only usable top knuckle I had available. Works great though!
Field testing has concluded. To recap: Independently and simultaneous to this thread I acquired a set of red Chaser jockey wheels for my Paramount and installed them using the bushings that brought the width closest to the width of the existing pulleys which are a set of inexpensive Shimanos, not original Campagnolo. I don't remember what the width was. Then I saw this thread and wondered, am I missing a millimeter? Does it matter? I didn't change anything and took the bike out for 20 hilly miles, working the full 14-32 (I think, maybe it's 34) Ultra-6 range. It shifted flawlessly. I'm leaving it alone.
Previously, I never would have noticed. I was thinking (a) if too narrow, the chain might drag not he side plates, or (b) if too wide, deteriorated shifting.
__________________
Larry:1958 Drysdale, 1961 Gitane Gran Sport, 1974 Zeus track, 1988 Masi Gran Corsa, 1974 Falcon, 1980 Palo Alto, 1973 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1974 Legnano. Susan: 1976 Windsor Profesional.
Larry:1958 Drysdale, 1961 Gitane Gran Sport, 1974 Zeus track, 1988 Masi Gran Corsa, 1974 Falcon, 1980 Palo Alto, 1973 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1974 Legnano. Susan: 1976 Windsor Profesional.
02-12-24, 10:07 AM
#59
Senior Member
You might be right, in that I am over-thinking this -- blame my micrometer, I tend to measure everything now.
Previously, I never would have noticed. I was thinking (a) if too narrow, the chain might drag not he side plates, or (b) if too wide, deteriorated shifting.
