PeteHski

Just a couple of weeks ago. I only rode one course for an hour or so and was thoroughly unimpressed. I honestly expected it to be better. I’m going to try MyWhoosh over the weekend.

zacster

I looked at MyWhoosh on my old iMac but at maximum resolution and it looked OK, but not as nice as Zwift. I'll have to try it though on the bike on my M1 to see if it is worthwhile. I just went back in on my iMac and it reset the graphics down to low. I went to a route and it was practically empty, which is where Zwift is nice. There are always riders no matter whether the ride is on the calendar or not.

South Pa

After reading your comments, I examined the cassette on the trainer.

1. It does appear out of alignment...the chain angles just a bit outward going to the front rings
2. The spacer appears to be 'bent' in a few places (see pic). Re-reading the pdf for cassette replacement, I may have the spacer in the wrong position. Without the spacer, the lowest 2 gears (which are separate gear rings from the cassette) were loose. I'm not sure I see another position for the spacer that would resolve that looseness. I used a torque wrench to tighten, but ended up at 'best guess' tightening, since I couldn't hear or feel the TW clicks due to the clicking from the grooved lockring.

The spacer can be removed and straightened if necessary. Garmin doesn't have the spacer as a separate item, but is sending me the installation kit (including spacer) at no cost. The spacer in its current position did tighten up the cassette gears, but as mentioned in #1 above, the chain does angle outward to the front rings.

The cassette replacement instructions in the pdf state: "Some 9 or 10 speed cassettes may require an extra spacer between the cassette and lockring"., but that did nothing to resolve the loose gears. Nor would the 40mm spacer fit anywhere but over the 'freehub body'. I'm probably missing something simple.

South Pa

I track my rides with both my Garmin watch (Fenix 7 Pro Saph) and Zwift.

The ERG ride I mentioned is the first ERG for me. I found it almost effortless, over sooner than I expected and not seriously winded. My "steady effort" rides seemed much more taxing.

Yet...Garmin tells me I've over-reached, and put me at 56 hours of recovery time. Is this how ERG works? 'hidden' strain/stress on the body? Should I pay attention to Garmin?

South Pa

Thanks for this...still figuring it all out...haven't yet completed the 'getting started' phase.

choddo

That’s where the spacer goes. Maybe need 2 for a 9speed. I use 1 for a 10speed but not sure if the cog width changed between 9 & 10

Garmin mostly use heart rate for their effort estimate. How was yours on that ERG session? It shouldn’t make things any harder, just allows the software to mandate a power output no matter what you do cadence wise.

zacster

I did a ride in ERG mode on Zwift earlier today, one of the workouts. And as I stated above somewhere I like a little more variation on the workout, like the Sufferfest ones. If your ERG mode is effortless you need to increase your FTP, all workouts in Zwift, Sufferfest and probably the others too are scaled to your FTP. You can also just take the FTP test, but if you are new to all this you'll want to get to know it all better, and at least get some fitness before going into the test.

I also tried MyWhoosh before I did my Zwift ride, this time on my setup with the Macbook M1. The graphics by default were all on the highest settings, and it all looked smooth, but I didn't find the graphics all that compelling. And the emptiness of it does take something away. But that being said, I did my workout on my favorite Zwift course, the Central Park loop, today though it was empty as it wasn't one of the worlds in rotation for the day. It didn't matter to me as being a NYer that rides it in real life too makes it even more realistic. My wife was a runner and she would look at it on screen and know exactly where I was. I got both the green jersey for the NY Sprint and the orange jersey for the Park Perimeter because it was so empty. I had done two laps during my workout and then did the sprint on the third lap free riding.

PeteHski

No, something is wrong. If it was supposed to be an intense workout with high power interval targets, then it should have felt hard. ERG mode is just a way of automating target power intervals. It sounds like it wasn’t working in this case, but somehow your Garmin was fooled into thinking it was. But ERG mode workouts can be as easy or hard as you like depending on the power targets set in the workout.

PeteHski

I also gave MyWhoosh a try yesterday. It works okay, but I agree that the graphics are basic and generic. I rode one of the Belgian courses and it was pretty boring. I found the constant repetitive roadside advertising boards really annoying and the rider avatar is kind of irritating. I went back to Zwift straight afterward and it highlighted to me how far Zwift has come graphically. Night and day better in all respects.

South Pa

Garmin support wasn't aware of spacer issues. But it's a new product. The 2nd spacer is coming in the installation kit (was also included with the Neo 3). I'm not sure if the spacer could have been obtained separately from another source (hardware store, etc).

I do find it odd that the spacer doesn't seat all the way against the trainer body and has a few bends (I assume from tightening - see above pic @ red arrow)

This is the strange part...I stayed in HR zones 1 & 2 for 98% of my ride, and crept into zone 3 for 1%. I'm tracking thru both Zwift (sending to G Connect) and Garmin (via Fenix, with smart trainer connected/ with free ride set). Both activities show up in my Garmin Connect account. Both show high impact, although stats do vary a bit between the two. Garmin's specified recovery time was the longest I've experienced at 56 hrs. Granted, I have sleep issues (as the app points out), but that's nothing new.

I'm thinking that Garmin is in error.

South Pa

I've done a bit of homework on ERG...I'm thinking it's not really what I need anyway. My objectives are aerobic exercise to keep the heart rate up and heart strong. I have a history of CAD and have set my max HR to 145 for now, as per Dr. instructions.

I've found Garmin to be pretty accurate on a lot of its data and conclusions, but think it's a bit confused with the addition of the neo and zwift.

I'll continue tracking with both because there is data that doesn't overlap between the two. It also gives me a comparison between HR monitors (HRM-Dual and Fenix 7 Pro HRM).

choddo

That spacer looks like some I’ve had in the last which aren’t full width all the way round (to save materials cost?) but more like segmented. They still work fine.

PeteHski

Garmin should not have a problem with your Zwift rides providing you have your HR and Power zones set up correctly. For example I did a fairly easy Z2 Zwift group ride today and Garmin correctly rated it as a base ride with minimal recovery.

South Pa

There were no 'segments' in this spacer. I just did a workout and the gearing was problematic. Turned ERG off. Often, the gears would jump-shift on their own, and the indexing is messed up.
I took the bike to Trek last week and had them adjust the derailleurs, but didn't test it with the wheel on.
I'll test it tomorrow and see how it does. I also intend to call Garmin about the issue.

South Pa

Also, the issue of Garmin's assessment...After the ride today, it gave me a recovery time of 96 hours. Something's wrong there. Today's ride was a Free Ride workout - 5 mins warmup, 20 mins trying to keep HR at around 115 and 5 mins cool down. ERG mode off. A few 11-15% hills. My max HR was around 120. I've done rides with an average HR of 135 and recovery time was just a day.

I've trusted Garmin up to this point. The problems began when I connected to the Neo 3M and began tracking with both the Fenix 7 Pro and Zwift. I'll talk to Garmin about this as well. I may have to try tracking with Zwift only.
I'll try an outdoor ride tomorrow using the Fenix. It won't be connected to the Neo 3M, so I suspect I won't get the interpretive errors.

I probably won't be able to track with both Garmin and Zwift. Maybe I'll try tracking with both, not allowing the Fenix to connect to the Neo...just use 'Bike Ride'.

I appreciate the help. I'll let y'all know what happens in both cases (cassette and tracking errors)

choddo

I think that there is an issue with dual logging via Fenix + Edge, don't know if similar data issues are causing a problem with Fenix+Zwift. Worth contacting Garmin, their support are decent.

Sorry you're right about the spacer, now that I see the photo full size on a PC. It's just bent somehow. Looks fairly flush still, so probably another one will help. Are you riding it without the lockring tight?

South Pa

It should also be said that there are discrepancies in the data between the two. I.E.:

G - HR Avg 106bpm, Z - 109bpm
G - PW Avg 70w, Z - 81w
No cadence or elevation with Garmin, no HR recovery rate with Zwift.

In fact, all the figures vary to some degree.

South Pa

I don't think so. I mentioned earlier that the torque wrench I used was basically useless, since the grooves on the lockring cause loud clicking...I couldn't tell when the correct torque was reached.

That said, the cassette isn't loose. The 2 highest gears were before I put the spacer in.

Does your spacer fit against the trainer body? Just seems like it should at least fit flush at the end of the Cassette hub. If you look at the photo, my spacer appears to be about 1/8" from the end of the hub.

South Pa

Still learning the ins and outs. I didn't specifically set up HR zones or power zones...just a max heart rate in my profile.

It may be an issue with the multiple tracking methods employed...Both Garmin and Zwift connected to the Neo 3m at the same time.

PeteHski

I think you would be better off connecting your Neo only to Zwift and then pair your Zwift data with Garmin Connect. That’s what I do anyway and there are no issues.

zacster

My advice in addition to the above is to not stress about the differences. Take it all with a grain of salt. A lot of these results apply to top athletes, not casual riders. I have a lot more data than I can use, but when it comes down to it the measures are watts, cadence, hr and time. The first three are read from the sensors, and you know how to measure the 4th. Except you don't in that some apps will pause the time when the sensors stop. Everything else is derived and I only believe measures that use watts and time. Everything else requires a fudge factor when it requires knowing how humans interact.

South Pa

I've come to the same conclusions re: Zwift/Garmin. I think the problem is that both are connected to the Neo 3m and Garmin gets confused. Zwift data is fine, since it really draws no fitness/health conclusions. Next ride, I'll still try using Fenix and Zwift, but I'll use the indoor cycling option and not allow the watch to connect to the Neo and see how it goes. I'm betting that'll resolve that issue.

As to the spacing issues, I called Garmin support, but the guy was at kind of at a loss, since the neo has just been released in US. He wanted me to video what I was trying to do, but that seemed kind of pointless. So I spent the rest of the day trying different combinations/positions of spacers. The one that worked best was using one of the 12 speed spacers between the freehub body and the trainer (behind black pre-installed spacer) and the 40mm spacer over the freehub body between the groove/teeth at the back of the FH and the cassette (same as in the photo I posted above). It's obviously not the correct place, since the freehub 'teeth' slightly bend the spacer, but the instructions are completely wrong. It has the spacer placed where it won't fit.

After I found the best configuration of spacers, I re-indexed and adjusted the derailleurs and now it's working perfectly. Not sure how it will go outdoors off the trainer, but I'll be using the trainer 90% of the time anyway, since I live in a very hot, humid and rainy climate. I'll try a ride outdoors to see how it does with the back wheel on, after which I'll call Garmin and let them know how it goes. I guess I'm beta testing the Neo.

zacster

As long as the space between the dropout and the first cog is the same you won't have any problems. But it has to be truly the same, not just close. You set the derailleur limit screw so that the chain is quiet on the first cog, so that first cog just has to be in the same place on both. With 9sp you probably have a little bit of play, but with 10/11/12 you don't, there's just no room for play. They squeezed every tenth of a millimeter out of it.

South Pa

I just finished a short ride. All went well. I'll likely have to fine tune the indexing.

I used both Fenix and Zwift to track, but used the indoor cycle as opposed to connecting to the Neo. I have garmin sensors on the bike itself (sans the sensor on the back wheel), but the Fenix seemed to pick up the sensors on the Neo, including power. I'm impressed.

That said, I'll wait to use both again until the Fenix thinks I've recovered...it's drawing conclusions based on the erroneous high load from before.

South Pa

Could you define that? Not sure what 'dropout' is, and is the first cog high or low? Thanks.

I adjusted the derailleurs and indexed whilst watching the Park Tool videos.