hankj

Steerer has play fore aft, none side side. You can see the top bearing slide fore aft in the cup. Tightening down doesn't stop it. I replaced headset, including cups, with new headset with cups perfectly tight to bearing in all directions. After pressing in top cup exactly the same issue as with old headset - fore aft looseness but tight side side, can see bearing slide fore aft.

I'm therefore pretty sure my headtube is ovalized. It's not a lot, but it transfers into unacceptable movement at the wheel over the distance of the lever. And I assume that it can get worse as the head tube over and over again has to stop at the momentum of the free swinging steerer every time I break hard.

Is there a DIY fix? It's an almost brand new frame, Salsa Fargo steel. I live in Seattle and there are a couple of super experienced steel frame builders in town here. I'm sure they could cut out the head tube and put in a new one, but I'd also bet that might be $500, maybe more with the need than to repaint the frame.

Thanks for advice

Iride01 

If it's a almost new frame, why don't you ask Salsa or one of it's authorized dealers about it. Maybe it would have been or still is a warranty item.

With headsets, it's always good to accept the fact you might be doing it wrong. So maybe the shop that looks at it can give you some useful knowledge if they find it's something else.

Andrew R Stewart 

there, are a few methods that might "fix" the issue. First is to do no blacksmithy stuff and see if a retaining compound is enough to secure the head set cup in place. Next up might be trying to manipulate the top of the HT more round. Various methods of applying force could be used but a hammer against a wood block against the front of the HT top end can do wonders with little paint damage.

What I would not do- replace the HT. This is like using a sledge hammer for a fly swatter. Sure there are some flies that seem like a sledge hammer is warranted but... I would not do any material removal (as in reaming and facing unless an experienced person deems it necessary. Removing material is a one way choice and non reversable methods should be the attempt of nearly last resort (the HT replacement is that last resort).

Another method that would result in significant paint damage would be to flow a layer of brass/bronze on the HT top's inside ends. Then a ream and chase to restore the diameter and face. I would consider this before HT replacement. Andy

hankj

thanks gents. I'd warranty it, but the Fargo steel frameset is nearly completely gone from all retailers and my size did not exist outside the secondary market. Salsa won't warranty even brand new frames if a second purchase. The XL I bought was new in box, BB very clearly never threaded, very clearly never assembled. Headset cups pressed in.

Andrew I particularly appreciate the check down list of of escalating options. Very helpful to be guided to ascending interventions, not lunge at most radical solutions right away.

Thanks!

Trakhak

The wording above is unclear, so, just for those of us who are curious: you bought the frameset or bike brand new from a dealer, right? If not, then the bike would not be covered by their warranty.

At least a couple of us have used Loctite 660, which is formulated to fill gaps. I fixed an ovalized head tube with it. Worked fine.

At the time I worked in a bike store, so i had access to a headset press. But you can improvise one using a large-diameter threaded bolt and some nuts and washers from a hardware store.

wheelreason

Doesn't sound like an ovalized headtube issue, but without seeing it first hand, hard to say.

wheelreason

No, he bought it NOS from a non-dealer

Andrew R Stewart 

We need to remember that NOS sale is not always the sale to the first and original owner that the dealer sold it to. Most every warranty I have read (yes, I have actually read many over the years) limits warranty offers to only that first dealer sale, the dealer that the brand has an agreement with to serve as their representative to the public. Of course, there are various "other than retail" ways to buy a bike and I know of situations where the brand did cover a warranty that wasn't required by the terms of their written warranty. These tend to be few and often take an advacate for the rider, to get the brand to agree to warranty coverage.

I think the OP knew this already though. I hope they did before buying the frame/fork. I also hope that whoever the OP bought the frame/fork from would have been up front about possible damage and any refundability options, and be wanting a good reputation for their future sales and thus be willing to work "with the OP".

This might be a cautionary story that others here could learn from. I'll look forward to the end results. Andy

hankj

Why? What else would cause two ostensibly round-to-start top headset cups to allow fore aft bearing movement but not side to side? I'm really curious.

I pressed in the second cup - went in square and even, no tipping on entry.

I can tell you that the bearing doesn't seem particularly pinched side to side in the cup, just a maybe .75mm slop front to rear. Also, with my digital calipers it was hard to find much difference between front to back and side to side measure of inside of cup or tube itself. Margin of error for actually spanning the widest part and holding the caliper at equal depth on both sides made a difference. But overall it did seem front back measured very slightly larger than side side.

And in the end the bearing that fit perfectly in the brand new cup slides exactly fore and aft. Seems suspicious that a reaming error would just happen to mimic ovalization caused by riding.

So anyway what else might it be?

hankj

Re Loctite 660, that fills in between bearing and cup, correct?

Can it get in the bearing and cause problems? Or cause the bearing to get stuck in the cup?

Should it fill gap at the front of bearing, or the back, or both? I'm assuming front so Loctite only has to resist braking, not constant load from #205 rider and gear? But maybe both front and back?

Thanks

hankj

Regarding sale situation, from a guy on Ebay, claiming new frame unbuilt. Clearly no bottom bracket had ever been installed. Headset cups were pressed in.

He said he was going to build but then found a complete bike.

Not at all my usual way to buy a frameset, but the steel Fargo in my size did not exist at any shop as far as I can tell. I called at least 30 shops. One big Salsa dealer told me that QBP was no longer going to make any steel frames under the Salsa brand - Surly was going to be the steel label. And as such he doubted the steel Fargo would ever be made again - too much overlap with existing Surlys.

So took a chance based on this info. Guy sent along original receipts and had frameset pro-packed at shop. Unfortunately his name is on the receipt. Guess sometimes the bear eats you.

FWIW, the frameset and fork were pristine - uncut fork steerer, not even a tiny mark an anything, headset parts looking pristine in orginal.packaging. If someone installed the fork and figured out there was a flaw they were pretty cagey about it ....

Trakhak

It's been a couple of decades since I did the repair, so I've forgotten the details. That said, I can't imagine any way to end up with compromised bearings. Just insert the cup or cups midway into the head tube, paint on a good amount of the sludgy compound, push the cups in the rest of the way, wipe off the excess compound, and use a headset press (improvised or otherwise) to hold the cups in place, to ensure that they're not tilted as the compound hardens.

FBinNY 

I suspect (can't know) that the issue might be the result of unthinking frame prep, by a rank amateur mechanic.

Consider, the head tube ID (when round) is matched to the head cups. Actually slightly under allowing reaming to an exact ID for a proper interference fit (under 0.5mm). Even if it were ovalized afterward, the circumference would be unchanged, so pressing the cup in would restore the correct fit by forcing it round.

However, consider if it were ovalized BEFORE someone opted to pass a reamer through. The reamer would cut from the narrow side, but, obviously, not add that metal back to the long side. The result is that the minor diameter is now correct, but the long side still too long, causing EXACTLY what you describe.

The above assumes a relatively new bike. If this were a well used mtn bike, there's the possibility that repetitive impacts caused bellmouth of the lower head tube, but that could only appky ot the lower cup.

Andrew R Stewart 

Heat induced distortion is pretty common on head tubes. The majority of the weld or braze heat is mostly on one side of the HT. Although a .5mm difference is pretty big. Andy

wheelreason

What you are describing sounds like wrong hset, improper installation of the hset, and/or improper bearing preload. An ovalized headtube severe enough to cause an issue willl be obvious by sight or feel (to someone who does this for a living). Could be the problem, just doesn't sound like it. Looking at it for 5 minutes in person would make for an easy diagnosis, over the InterWeb, not so much. Not saying this is the case here, but have guys bring in "bad headtube" hset issues that turn out not to be over 90% of the time.

FBinNY 

Yes, that's true, but since the circumference is unchanged, it would still be a proper fit as the cup makes it conform.

Ovaling can ONLY cause a poor fit if metal is removed as I described above.

FWIW, if this is new, it's defective ,(opinion) by virtue of whoever did the prep.

hankj

So headtube conforms to cup, not vice versa? The cup I pressed in was perfectly round on the bearing before install. Cup went in dead square. Then after that the little bit of fore aft slop happened, exactly like the OG cup.

​​​​If manufacturing defect then the cup will conform to the tube?

Thanks

FBinNY 

BEFORE doing anything, confirm that the problem is between the cup and headtube, and not elsewhere.

To answer your question----- the weaker member conforms to the stronger one. Cups are well braced while headtubes aren't so the headtube does the flexing.

Imagine for a moment a piece of string. Tie it around a cylinder tightly. Slide it off and you can shape it any way you want, but it will still slide back onto the pipe and be just as tight as before.

The same with headtubes. Being ovalized doesn't change how it will fit onto a cup. The ONLY ways it could end up loose are if actually stretched (possible but very rare) of if material is shaved off from the ID.

I've seen this dozens of times, and it's obvious, because the ID will show the evidence of reaming on the sides, but not front and back.

Kontact 

How the rocking is observed matters. If you're seeing the fork steerer move, then it could be the steerer and not the head tube.

Also, if the cup is rocking, could it be because the top of the HT isn't faced, and the cup is tipping on a high spot?

hankj

Top bearing sliding fore aft in top cup.

FBinNY 

Something is missing here. Not a part, but key info, or clarification.

Specifically, EXACTLY what is moving. OTOH you describe a pressed in cup. These are either a solid steel part, with bearing ground in, or a aluminum cup with a steel bearing race. If the latter, it would take more than an ovalized head tube to dislodge the race.

There are also integrated headsets where the bearing drops in, rather than needing to be pressed.

So, before going farther, we need some clarity.

What type of headset?
Is the cup moving in the headtube, or is something else happening?

The precision and clarity of your description will determine the quality of any help offered.

hankj

Cane Creek 40. The cup does not move. It is firmly and evenly pressed into the headtube.. The bearing slides fore and aft in the cup. Not sure how else to explain it. No need to fish for some different version - it's "exactly" as I'm describing. No more no less.

FBinNY 

Getting closer, but not home. It seems we were mislead by your title description of an ovslized headtube, but let's move on.

CC 40 headsets come in two versions, press-in and integrated. Both use a drop in cartridge bearing, so there are two possibilities.

1- the cup is defective or damaged,
2- you're doing something wrong, ie. bearing upside down.

It's also possible that the parts are all OK, and it's simply a loose headset, or one that can't tighten because of a missing spacer, or other similar issue.

At this point, I'm out until you post a photo of the bearing sitting in the cup, so we can see for ourselves.

hankj

We? Go ahead and be out. Absolutely zero useful info, but much "I'm the expert" huffing and puffing. I've built more than 50 bikes up from frames you hump, the bearing isn't upside down. Jeez.

​​

FBinNY 

You're welcome.