dtipton

I contacted Mr. Kucharik and he confirmed that the wool and jerseys are still manufactured in the USA.

cletus

I still think that the portland wool jerseys look cooler.

cyclotoine

Yeah the plain Kuchark or whatever ones are ugly. The portland ones are much cooler. I guess it doesn't look like it will happen based on some thread in SSFG... I haven't read it yet though. So I am anxious to hear from Lotek.

Sammyboy

Just took a look, and he's already sold out of loads of colour/size combinations. This was what blew the C&V jersey out last year, really. How can you be sold out of 08 shirts in Feb? What does the guy do the rest of the year? I think I'd rather do business with a more professional outfit.

cletus

Where do you see that he's sold out of certain colors/sizes?

Charles Wahl

Perhaps Sammyboy was looking at the 07 jerseys.

iab

Actually no, there are several 08 jerseys sold out. Click on the size link within a jersey style, you will see the ones sold out.

Short sleeve: S-red, XL-black & red, XXL-black & red
Long sleeve: XS-black, red & blue, S-black & blue, XL-black & red, XXL-black

marqueemoon

I'm def. in for a Kucharik group buy.

dookie

i'm in. one of each?

ronzorini

Hey guys (and gals),

Just a thought, but if you decide on a group buy from Kucharik, I'd be happy to pick everything up and ship it out to the individual buyers at cost.

(But, I'll let somebody else be in charge of taking the orders, collecting the $$$, etc. )

I happen to live 1/2 mile from the Kucharik store in Gardena, CA. I've never bought anything from them, but they've been around forever, so they must be doing something right.

Road Fan

I would want a long sleeve. How does the sizing work?

Road Fan

cyclotoine

portland cyclewear sizing

Chest Sizing / Jersey length back / Sleeve Length L.S.

XS - 30-32" 25" 28.5"

S - 33-35" 25.5" 30"

M - 36-38" 27" 31.5"

L - 39-41" 27.5" 32"

XL - 42-44" 28" 33.5"

XXL - 45-47" 28.5" 35"

Banzai

After reading the above post on "fixedgeargallery" I'm a little concerned about ordering from them too. That guy sounds like a piece of work.

Antipodes

If that thread from FGG is real, then the Portland Cyclewear guy sounds like a total f**king w**ker. What kind of response is that to a legitimate question? The origin of a product is something that I would like to think that I always try to consider when making a purchase (for the exact reasons stated in the thread) and to have someone make a mockery of such a serious issue, makes me also want to make "Boycott Portland Cyclewear" stickers and plaster them all over my bikes.
I recently got a nice retro-looking jersey from MEC (yeah, probably only applicable to those residing in Canada, as I don't know whether they ship to the States or internationally), which is 100% merino and Canadian-made. Here are the links:

Men's -

https://www.mec.ca/Products/product_d...=1203966069683


Women's -
https://www.mec.ca/Products/product_d...=1203966163989


Obviosuly is you want a choice of colours, then this isn't the best option. If anyone does decide to get one though, just don't get the blue and white one, because I have it...

oopfoo

You know, there is SUCH a lack of economic understanding around here.

Anyway...

Chad at Portland is a good guy. He's trying to run a business in an arena that is TOUGH. His overhead, and thus his stock, must be kept low. He's trying to make sure stuff he HAS will be sold and not shelved for years on end. He might have offended some of you, but come ON! Were his comments directed at you, personally? You're calling him names in a public forum! Do you know him? Would you call him names in person? Or are you happiest babbling on behind the screen of Internet anonymity? What about this is any better than his own attempts at humor?

The ridiculous diatribes of the Internet population simply confirm my fear that humans are cognitively little-removed from those ancestors that climbed down from the trees.

MY comments ARE directed at you. Have fun.

This is C&V, the gentle forum. Go back to Road Cycling, please.

cyclotoine

Maybe so, and I am sure he is a good guy, I but things made in China, sometime I don't realize it till later, but I bet my sneakers downstairs are made there. I like to think I am still a good person with a conscience, but sometimes I don't think about where something is made when I buy it, only later to see the label says made in china and I have to wonder if I supported ill labour practices....

Anyway, I know little about economics, but Chad was downright rude to the person en quiring about where that was made. Yes he did apologize (at least I thought I read somewhere that he did), but he shouldn't have been so rude in the first place.

Banzai

Well, oopfoo...

If the thread on FFG is legit, then I know enough to pass some judgments. A person doesn't have to direct a statement at me personally to be a jack@ss.

Chad's "ridiculous diatribe" on the FFG would seem to confirm your "fear" a bit more handily than the posts here. Particularly when the coffee shop owner in that thread was nothing less than professional and polite, and Chad was quite the opposite back.

Of course, I don't really have to call him names in a public forum, since he plainly stated his personality/points of view in such a way as to, quite rightly, alienate nearly anyone who reads his message to the coffee shop owner.

I imagine only one group of people would be pleased as punch with his replies...that same group likely has high blood pressure and spends their free time listening to angry, vitriolic radio blow-hards who LOVE the fact that one can get rich off of the undemocratic labor of overseas countries.

In the meantime, there are many functional economic models, and many ways of understanding them. Those models vary by how you measure success, and who they ultimately serve.

I was bothered by both the tone and content of his replies to a legitimate question. Highly unprofessional, and embracing of an ethos that I will join the coffee shop owner in not supporting.

Antipodes

Oh, boo friggin' hoo for his economic hardships. I'm supposed to feel sorry for him am I? I don't have to be an economist to have the opinion that sweatshop labour is bad. Is it unbelievable how the words "economic" and "economy" are used to justify virtually anything and everything nowadays.
My reply was not an attempt at humour. I was irked by such a stupid response to a well-intentioned question - I don't see the funny side in sweatshop labour practices. Maybe you do, that's fine. I try to make ethical choices in my consumption habits, but sometimes unwillingly (and sometimes willingly and begrudgingly) participate in the purchase of products of dubious origins.
More to the point, it seems as though Chad wasn't so much as trying to make a joke, as he was trying to make the guy from the coffee roaster feel like crap for asking such a question.
Also, if I'm guilty of what you refer to as "babbling" (somehow this qualifies, but discussion around bolt circle diameters of period cranksets or calculations of touring gear inches or whatever else we talk about here at C&V doesn't?), then you too are playing the game. I'd better be gentle though, otherwise I'll have to climb up the nearest tree. I'll be sure to see you at the top...

oopfoo

Actually, the economics point was this:

People producing products at a comparative advantage can trade them for other goods, goods ALSO produced at comparative advantage. These "sweatshops" have a BIG comparative advantage in labor. These laborers are--on the whole--not "slaves in the bondage of evil capitalists" as so popularized by the media and masses of uneducated college students. These are people earning a wage, a wage that keeps them out of poverty and other, less savory occupations like prostitution or subsistence farming.

Although we Americans have lost sight of it, MOST of the world lives far beneath the posh conditions we set for ourselves. Working is not a crime, nor is being allowed to work. Productivity in the face of starvation is ALWAYS the better alternative.

Do your homework. Go to a "sweatshop." Go to several. Witness the alternatives available to these people. Ask them how they feel. Ask them how they'd feel about NOT having a job. See if you can find the "sweatshop"--since apparently ALL foreign labor consist of sweatshop-workers--where Portland Cyclewear wool jerseys are made.

Then come back home and take an Economics class, maybe Macroeconomics 101.

Just because you know something to be true...something you can FEEL in your heart-of-hearts...doesn't necessarily make it so.

cyclotoine

It's really ashame that we live in a world that has made subsistence farming an "unsavory occupation". The global economy has crushed perhaps the most simple and rewarding occupation and done so much harm to the environment that subsistence farming is becoming impossible in all parts of the world. As a result westerns view it as "unsavory". That comment makes me sad.

Antipodes

My point was never to say that Portland Cyclewear used sweatshop labour or that all foreign goods are produced in sweatshops. Like I said, my comments were directed purely at Chad's poor response to a well-meaning potential customer.
Whether or not foreign people are better off under working conditions which you refer to is also off the mark. "Decent living wages", "alternatives to starvation" and "keeping people out of poverty" are simply the by-products of a corporate culture of offshore production. Yes, if I was in a different time and place and faced with the same hardships, I too would probably be opting for such factory work. They may be better off, but only in comparison to what else is available to them. You have to compare apples with apples. If workers were the prime concerns of corporations, then there would no reason to move overseas - go ask the underclass of your very country what they think about their sub-$8 an hour wages and conditions compared to fairly well-off people like you and I.
Belittling me or Banzai or whoever else with your petty "take an economics class" comments doesn't change my opinion of sweatshop labour or even foreign labour in general, irrespective of whether Portland Cyclewear supports it or not.

Briareos

Although Chad could have answered better, I don't think refusing to give him business is really warranted here. The question about "where exactly in China are they made" is NOT a valid question in my opinion. That's trolling for trouble. Did the customer have a cousin who lived in a province of China and wanted to see if he could pick the jerseys up for him maybe? Highly unlikely. Was he going to send a private investigator to go inspect the factory or something?

Him comparing his business to Portland Cyclewear is a bit off as well. Coffee shops can thrive with that eco-friendly, labor-friendly attitude, their demographic is comprised of many people who also believe the same. Not to say that PC shouldn't have the same standards in treating human-beings, but the comparison is apples vs. oranges. My guess is Chad was not happy with someone who has no idea what he has to do to run a cycling based business.

He also apologized, realizing his responses were rude. I doubt he's going to treat anyone the same way again, given the publicity this fiasco brought him. Permanently punishing a business who has tried to make amends is unfair don't you think?

Obviously Howler has much higher standards for what he wears and/or uses in his life. That's fine, and I commend him for making the effort, because it IS hard. Are we also going to claim the same beliefs that Howler does in our group-buy? I would hope not.

That being said (and multiple edits), I would like a couple jersey's from them myself. Rapha is too damn expensive and riding around with logo's doesn't sit right with me either. Seems like a good choice...Given my beliefs.

oopfoo

An apology:

Antipodes,

You know, I had a bad day today, which negatively affected the manner I which I commented. I used belittling comments that called your intelligence into question. In truth, I suspect you are an intelligent, interesting person. I know your heart is in the right place, considering your obvious concern with the welfare of workers and the state of the world. I don't think we're playing for different teams. I apologize for the tone I took in my responses.

My own concern is that the workers in these countries are paid a living wage. This is NOT the same as the minimum wage in the US. It isn't in the ballpark. These people need economic power in order to grow, and although we may wish the world was an even score on a level playing field, so far it just isn't. Giving the poorer nations the luxuries we abuse in the United States will not encourage them, it will rot them just as surely as we have rotted (in some areas). What they need is positive economic growth. Paying them for their work, buying their goods will give them buying power. That is what they need most of all--a chance to make it on their own. Pay them what the market will bear and we will ALL grow; it's not a zero-sum game.

Again, I am sorry. I really wish to show you what I've seen; to convince you, not just anger you.

Cyclotoine,

Subsistence farming, as I refer to it, is not a pleasant, happy community all raising crops. It is struggling for life itself in the face of overwhelming odds. It is having child after child in the hopes that some few will survive. It is an early, suffering death.

I was not speaking of a rural or agricultural society like that of the American family farm (something I heard my own father dreamily wish for). I was speaking of painful grubbing and starvation.

Finally, I suspect that foreign workers would not wish so much that they had our lives of luxury and choice, but would instead marvel that we do so little with what we have. The foreign workers I've spoken with are amazed that Americans march in protest against their working conditions, costing them jobs and wages.

Antipodes

Apology accepted. Whilst I agree with your ideas that workers in foreign countries may be payed a living wage, I feel that this kind of reasoning is what got us into trouble oh so many years ago. If such a worker does indeed earn more than a subsistence farmer or prostitute, does this mean that they are paid a so-called "living wage"? Yes, it may allow them survive in a better condition than before, but compared to a similar worker in our respective countries, as you too state, it is not in the same ball park. A human being is a human being, regardless of whether they are American or Chinese. Whilst this may conform to my admittedly low-level understanding of economic theory, it is how I feel. I see no reason why they should not be paid as well or receive the same treatment and benefits as what a local worker would. Of course, if this was the case, then the current system wouldn't have a leg to stand on. I'm not that naive to not understand this. Perhaps it would make us reassess our seemingly inherent belief that we should have full access to consumer products as cheaply and conveniently as possible. I would love to think that on the occasion that I purchase a foreign-made product that it does give someone a helping hand up in the world. It may very well, but unfortunately, as you and I know, the biggest benefit goes to stockholders and owners - which is part of the foundation upon which our economic system is built. We are not buying "their goods" when the name is still the same. That's why when it's possible and feasible, and until the playing field is indeed level, I will try to buy the locally-made product over the foreign-owned.
Sorry to hijack the thread....back to the wool jersey discussion...

cyclotoine

I realize that. What do you think those conditions are a result of?