livedarklions

Honestly not sure what your point is to argue with. For example, there are clothes that are meant for hot weather and those for cold weather. If you choose the wrong clothing for the conditions, you could actually die. How is that "redundant"?

Wearing shoes that are only comfortable and useful while you're on the bike is a pretty silly thing to do if you intend to hop off of the bike from time to time and walk around extensively and you don't want to carry around two pairs of shoes. I don't presume to say wearing cycling shoes is silly if you find you get performance/comfort benefits from them while you are cycling, Unlike ties, shoes have a specific utility and aren't just decorative, btw, so the analogy is absurd.

All anyone's saying here is that the objective case for one type of pedal over another is not clear enough that people should feel the need to discount the importance of their subjective preferences. We know more about our own riding habits and our feet than anyone else does. Other people can tell you what's available, they really won't be able to tell you what will work best for you.

Yan 

You can get clipless shoes with recessed cleats and flexible soles, such as the Shimano touring shoes. They look and walk identically to any standard trail runners. The cleats don't touch the ground and you can do any kind of hiking with them all day long.

livedarklions

Yes, and I can get walking shoes that work just fine for me on my preferred platform pedals. Is your point we have choices or is it that the one with the cleats is the only logical choice? Your point was completely obscure and the bit about sheets with holes in them made no sense whatsoever. .

Yan 

When you wear normal shoes you are losing a capability (no clipping in). When you wear recessed touring clipless shoes, you can clip in AND you can walk just as well as any normal shoes. You gain a capability with no drawback. It's a totally free lunch, apart from of course you have to buy the shoes.

My point is that people who chase after simplicity and insist on using only street shoes are pushing that monk downsizing philosophy too hard. You've already got under your crotch this absurdly massive metal contraption with two round things attached to it. You're going to complain now about having to put on a pair of shoes?

If you're going to insist on simplicity and cut away all the minor incremental perks of technology, there is no end to how much you can cut down. Why have drop bars? Saw off the ends and just ride flats. Why have 12 speeds? Make do with 8 speed which is cheap. You're going to go along with all this other unnecessary crap but for some reason SHOES are where you're going to make your last stand??? What the hell? Why so specific??? You've only got three points of contact with the bike: hands, ass, and shoes. Of all the places you could compromise for simplicity, you choose one of the three most important areas?

rsbob 

After being clipped in since the first Look pedal, I find not clipping in having the same uneasy feeling as not putting on a seat belt when driving. It’s a feeling of security.

Kapusta

Just ignore him.

livedarklions

From my perspective, clipping is in not a capability, it is all drawback, but I don't expect you to understand that other people don't see things exactly as you do.

And yeah, I kick a lot of ass on my 8 speed Serotta. Nothing Monkish about it, it's a goddamn blast to ride.

Yan 

What's the drawback? Afraid of falling over? It's not that hard, most people learn in a few days.

wolfchild

Toes clips and straps offer about 90% of what clipless has to offer in terms of performance. The biggest advantage of toe clips and straps is that I can wear whatever shoes or boots I want... I am very picky about what shoes/boots I choose to wear and i have not found cleated shoes or boots that I like ...I don't race, i don't compete, i don't have an obsession with cycling performance,.. I just ride for health, fitness, fun and getting outdoors and enjoying the scenery, I don't need clipless pedals to enjoy the bike ride and reap the health benefits of cycling.

wolfchild

Requires cleated shoes, that the biggest drawback.

Ironfish653

Whoa, pump the brakes there, Hoss! You’re picking the wrong battle with the wrong guy. Not that LDL needs anyone to defend him, but if you’ve been in any of the other dozen-odd pedal posts, he’s got some ortho issues that preclude the comfortable use of clipless for him
His arguments generally revolve around how they’re wrong for him ​​​​​, but others are free to do as they like.

I’m pretty system-agnostic; I use whatever makes the most sense for the specific bike on a given ride. Changing pedals only takes a couple of minutes, although most of my bikes have a “regular” set of pedals depending on their typical missions.

Also, being that BeikForumz is a very road-bike centered forum, with a strong retrogrouchy contingent, that the “clipless shoes are unwalkable” vibe comes from is that “all” clipless shoes are 3-bolt Look-pattern road racing shoes.

I actually have multiple pairs of different cycling shoes, and, since I don’t typically wear shoes in the house; when I get ready to leave for a ride, I just put on the appropriate shoes for the chosen bike and level of on and off-bike activity I’m expecting.
It’s an N=N+1 thing; just like having only one bike to do everything may mean making compromises in pursuit of “the one perfect thing for all the things”

Yan 

Yikes, that would be a no for me. I rode toe clips for many years but would never go back to them. They are a massive injury hazard.

Check out his guy who had his foot stuck in his clips during a crash and turned his knee 180 degrees backwards. Snapped every tendon. Doctors had to use ligaments harvested from dead cadavers to reconstruct his leg. Holy crap that is some horror movie gore. I'll stick to modern clipless that unclips automatically during crashes.

https://www.mtbr.com/threads/beware-...injury.327474/

70sSanO

I think you’ve missed the point completely. Toe clips, straps, and CLEATS have progressed to clipless.

There were also toe clips, straps, and NO CLEATS with Avocet type touring shoes. When it comes to toe clips and straps the big difference is whether a cleat is used. In the 80’s a lot of riders used non-cleated semi-rigid touring shoes that would slide on and out. Unfortunately the Avocets are long gone.

Non-toe clip pedals like MKS with serrated edges, BMX pedals, mtb bear trap have pretty much moved onto pinned platforms.

John

Yan 

No, I get you fully. But I really don't think this mountain biker who broke his knee riding toe clips in 2007 had the old style cleats on his shoe. That era was long over by then. The cages by themselves can trap your foot and break your leg. No cleats required.

70sSanO

Have you ever crashed, shattered your clavicle, and had your bike end up 30+ ft away while riding with touring shoes with toe clips, straps and no cleats?

John

Broctoon

Let me start by saying I am a huge fan of clipless pedals. At any given time, I have about a half dozen bikes in my fleet, and two or three of them will have clipless. One has straps and cages, and a few are platforms. There are other differences in the bikes as well, to match what kind of riding I do with each, but my favorite bikes and the ones I rode the most usually have clipless. So that's what camp I'm in... but I won't criticize anyone who doesn't like them, for whatever reasons. You do you.

Every time this topic comes up on BF, there's the discussion about "pulling up." Some claim they do it, and say that's why they like clipless. Others will chime in with citations of very scientific studies showing that not only do riders not actually pull up, but if you were to do so you would gain very little, because of the physiology involved. I accept these refutations to the "pulling up" claim.

I will insist, however, that in some very specific riding situations, clipless pedals can provide a huge performance advantage. For interval training, I like to ride my fixed gear bike on rolling hills. The climbs are not long and not extremely steep, but just hard enough and long enough to make me really work and jack up my heart rate for ~30 seconds every two minutes or so. They're also short enough and gradual enough to make real rewards possible when I work hard, i.e., I can actually accelerate up the hill, and not be absolutely gassed by the time I reach the top.

I've been practicing a technique for these little climbs for years, and I think I'm pretty good at it. It's not some mysterious secret weapon, known to me exclusively. Millions of cyclists have discovered it. I stand up, get out front as far as possible (torso low and forward over the handlebar), and sprint as hard as I can. There is a conscious effort to apply force with each foot through the entire rotation of the crank. Maybe it can be proven that at best all I'm doing is unloading the pedals on the upward/forward part of the circle. I believe I'm exerting force. At any rate, being locked into the pedals gives me the control and security necessary to push out high wattage (both through high force and cadence) at a level I am certain I could not achieve on platform pedals. I am throwing the bike around and using all the major muscle groups in my body during these efforts. No study, anecdote, or calculation will convince me that my pedal choice doesn't make a big difference here.

Granted, this is a situation that many riders will never encounter, and even in my riding it does not arise often (way less than 1% of my time on bikes). It is still significant enough to help dictate my pedal choice. I don't mean to evangelize or try converting any anti-clipless riders. I'm just sharing one of the reasons I like them.

Bogey Speedwell

…..kind of wish I hadn’t said anything.

I feel like the kid in the corner when his mommy and daddy are screaming at each other. 🫣

Yan 

I did have one bad downhill fully loaded touring crash that destroyed my wheel and bent the entire frame, but I was riding clipless. That was a pretty brutal one. It actually ripped the hooks off of one of my panniers and I spent the remaining 3.5 months of that tour with the pannier permanently lashed onto the rack. The frame was bent, so after I had a replacement wheel mailed to me from back home, I had to redish the wheel to make it ridable in the bent frame. I broke my helmet in half and had road rash down the entire side of my face, but fortunately no broken bones, only a sprained wrist. After resting for a week waiting for my replacement wheel to come in, I could continue the tour with daily pain killers. The wrist healed over the following month of the tour. That wasn't fun. Other than this incident have been lucky on tours, only standard spills, nothing epic.

In toe clips I have not had bad crashes fortunately. Most of my toe clip riding was many years ago when I was in college and too poor to afford new stuff. After I worked a couple of years I entered the modern era and didn't go back. I did have a beater fixed gear bike with toe clips during COVID, but I never rode it much and got rid of it eventually.


As for the efficiency aspect. I think in constant speed flat riding there is no big difference between clipped in vs platforms. The real difference is when you are riding technical stuff or when you accelerate. The momentary extra force from being fully locked in can make a big difference.

And of course when you are clipped in your feet will never slip off. You will never smash your balls into the top tube or stem. You will never gore your shins on pedal pins. This alone is worth it in my opinion.

70sSanO

There you go.

Clipless is superior to a toe clip, strap, and cleat setup.

John

Edit added: As far as any other pedal setup. It really isn’t any of your concern what anyone else uses.

I hope your not going to start talking about an aero riding position.

Yan 

No it's not my concern, but this is bike forums, a discussion forum. And in case you haven't noticed, this is a thread about someone having a revelation about discovering the joy of clipless for the first time.

Having a bunch of luddites immediately barge into a thread like this is just annoying at best. Let the guy bask in his joy for just one day for God's sake holy f...

Bogey you made the right decision. Here we are in 2022 and people are looking at clipless like the Spanish conquistadors eating chili peppers for the first time holy smokes it's unbelievable.

70sSanO

I agree that most, if not all, pedal threads end up with personal preferences and lines are drawn.

As I said earlier, the fact that there are so few threads about flaws with clipless pedals is pretty much a testament to how well they work.

John

Bogey Speedwell

yeah I’m good with it I was just having fun with you guys arguing.

honestly don’t care if people like my decisions or not, I was just happy whit how it worked for me. My whole point was to perhaps give the rookie viewpoint to other rookies who may be pondering on the dilemma I was looking at.

Daniel4

Ah
Canoe or kayak
Sailboat or powerboat
Snowboard or ski
Glasses or contacts
Apple or android
Beatles or the Rolling Stones
Serena or Venus
White meat or dark meat
Fat tires or skinny tires

Branko D

The thing is, this is easily measured (all you need is a non-pedal based powermeter) and it is true. While like all the studies and like GCN, I never found any difference in steady state power (so efficiency is almost certainly the same, too), the difference in 5s maximum is pretty huge, and the difference in 1 minute maximum is also pretty noticeable. GCN found the same measuring sprints, too. In race scenarios, this is a massive advantage.

​​​​​​I enjoy the feeling but that's subjective, being able to deliver more power for short durations is an objective advantage. Everyone with a powermeter can test it easily - you don't need a lab, you don't need complicated protocols to tease out the data.

If you’re just looking for solution for commuting or touring, though, there is absolutely nothing wrong with flats at all. I find them super practical and even preferable for commuting because, well, works with any shoes.

Kapusta

Nope.

A shoe with a sole that flexible enough to actually be like a trail running shoe would have terrible support under the cleat which would make them pretty lousy as a Clipless pedal shoe.

Ever ridden a set of clipless pedals with trail running shoes or sneakers? Very uncomfortable. Because that flexible sole does not distribute the weight. Slapping a cleat on it would not change that fact.

Yes, some clip-less shoes are reasonably. comfortable off the bike. But to say they are just like any other shoe or sneaker is silly. They simply lack the flexibility in the sole.

Flat pedals let you wear a shoe with a flexible sole under the ball of your foot, yet still have your foot be well supported on the pedal.