Myths of the road tubeless (or Go back to clinchers)
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The wider and lower (in pressure) you go, the more it makes sense, and the easier it should be to configure. For my road bikes, I don't see a need to deviate from 25c and 90-100 PSI, where the benefits from tubeless are diminishing. Unless you live in goathead country, of course. But I don't.
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jaxgtr thanks for the recommendation, when I wear through my current tires on the Bonty's, I may try Pirelli's or Bontrager R3 TLR tires if I find them on sale. It is annoying that you have to pay so much attention to specific combinations and empirical/anecdotal evidence.
The wider and lower (in pressure) you go, the more it makes sense, and the easier it should be to configure. For my road bikes, I don't see a need to deviate from 25c and 90-100 PSI, where the benefits from tubeless are diminishing. Unless you live in goathead country, of course. But I don't.
The wider and lower (in pressure) you go, the more it makes sense, and the easier it should be to configure. For my road bikes, I don't see a need to deviate from 25c and 90-100 PSI, where the benefits from tubeless are diminishing. Unless you live in goathead country, of course. But I don't.
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EDIT: I forgot to mention - the Bonty TLR R3's were my first choice, I figured the same MFG should have an amenable tire/rim combo. But they were b/o till November like many things so I relied on what I could scrounge from buddies that were lying around. I wouldn't hesitate to try the R3 since I have ridden it tubed/non-TLR before and found them quite nice.
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#55
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Ya, there is an element of that too, like maybe I don't know what I'm missing? My daily average body weight is 145-150 (depending on time of year) and run around 90 most of the time, unless I'm on a real smooth course. 90 PSI on latex tubes feels pretty good and is what I do most of the time. I'd probably try 80 if I did tubeless road.
EDIT: I forgot to mention - the Bonty TLR R3's were my first choice, I figured the same MFG should have an amenable tire/rim combo. But they were b/o till November like many things so I relied on what I could scrounge from buddies that were lying around. I wouldn't hesitate to try the R3 since I have ridden it tubed/non-TLR before and found them quite nice.
EDIT: I forgot to mention - the Bonty TLR R3's were my first choice, I figured the same MFG should have an amenable tire/rim combo. But they were b/o till November like many things so I relied on what I could scrounge from buddies that were lying around. I wouldn't hesitate to try the R3 since I have ridden it tubed/non-TLR before and found them quite nice.
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aclinjury well, as I specified in my previous posts, I don't! I thought I'd try it for funsies and ended up with a tire/rim combination that didn't work out, so I'm back on tubes.
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"Muck around and find out", isn't that the motto these days?
#58
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aclinjury well, as I specified in my previous posts, I don't! I thought I'd try it for funsies and ended up with a tire/rim combination that didn't work out, so I'm back on tubes.
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#59
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you got it. Probably 20-30% of the entire bicycle industry revenue is from people mucking around and experimenting... then finding either things didn't work out and they end up selling on ebay or craigslist or facebook market, or out right binning those items out of pure frustration.
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This isn't to say that I don't believe that there are some really tough combos out there, even for the experienced, I just don't believe it's as common as the interwebs echo chamber would have you believe; a tempest in a teapot, if you will.
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Eg. https://boydcycling.com/blogs/news/a...p5000-tl-tires or looking at this 'difficulty' rating charts of LightBicycle's (at least for their 25mms): https://www.lightbicycle.com/newslet...th-Charts.html
and for hookless: However, as with Zipp, the Continental GP500 TL and Vittoria Corsa are not on Giant's approved list.
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/p...ed-them-468466
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To some degree, this is likely. At the same time, there are known (if you happened to research) issues with some brands. Conti, which has to probably be the most ubiquitous brand out there being sold online and at the LBS, seems to be a problem child -- even acknowledged by wheel manufacturers. If/when I were to go TL, they would have to be at the bottom of my list for consideration if buying today.
Eg. https://boydcycling.com/blogs/news/a...p5000-tl-tires or looking at this 'difficulty' rating charts of LightBicycle's (at least for their 25mms): https://www.lightbicycle.com/newslet...th-Charts.html
and for hookless: However, as with Zipp, the Continental GP500 TL and Vittoria Corsa are not on Giant's approved list.
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/p...ed-them-468466
Eg. https://boydcycling.com/blogs/news/a...p5000-tl-tires or looking at this 'difficulty' rating charts of LightBicycle's (at least for their 25mms): https://www.lightbicycle.com/newslet...th-Charts.html
and for hookless: However, as with Zipp, the Continental GP500 TL and Vittoria Corsa are not on Giant's approved list.
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/p...ed-them-468466
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I hear/see this quite often, but I've never run in to it. I mean, I've run in to some tough combos that made me frustrated and sweaty... but that was early in my tubeless career, and revisiting those same hellacious combos proved them to be quite manageable with the right technique. It makes me assume that, like many problems, it's being overreported and/or that the user's skillset isn't terribly refined.will.
Both on Velocity or ENVE rims since that is all I own...So I don't think the varible in getting a tire seated is as much rim as it is design variables of the tire bead. The good performing Conti's had a flange inboard of the bead cord that looked specially designed to catch the inflation air for a tight seal against the rim shelf. The difficult Panaracer/Compass tires had no such feature. In back-to-back A/B tests, it doesn't take much imagination to see the air-catching flange of the Conti's works as intended.
I recently bought some Valve stems/cores for a tubeless set up. On my bench I also had a few OEM stems/cores kickin' around from etiher Giant or Special-ed. Long story short: I mixed/matched them up & after much frustration, it was discovered that the OEM stem/cores had a much larger bore than the off-the-shelf model to allow much greater air flow. Even if the valve itself was the same. The larger bore stems made all the difference in the world.
I guess the moral of the story for anyone reading this is: Even if the rims are held as a constant, some tires & some valve stems are better than others. Valve stem choice may indeed be one confounding factor.
Last edited by base2; 09-10-21 at 09:15 AM.
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FWIW the worst combinations I have come across used Panaracer & Compass tires. Which isn't surprising since they both come from the same molds. Some of the best combinations involved Conti GP5000.
Both on Velocity or ENVE rims since that is all I own...So I don't think the varible in getting a tire seated is as much rim as it is design variables of the tire bead. The good performing Conti's had a flange inboard of the bead cord that looked specially designed to catch the inflation air for a tight seal against the rim shelf. The difficult Panaracer/Compass tires had no such feature. In back-to-back A/B tests, it doesn't take much imagination to see the air-catching flange of the Conti's works as intended.
I recently bought some Valve stems/cores for a tubeless set up. On my bench I also had a few OEM stems/cores kickin' around from etiher Giant or Special-ed. Long story short: I mixed/matched them up & after much frustration, it was discovered that the OEM stem/cores had a much larger bore than the off-the-shelf model to allow much greater air flow. Even if the valve itself was the same. The larger bore stems made all the difference in the world.
I guess the moral of the story for anyone reading this is: Even if the rims are held as a constant, some tires & some valve stems are better than others. Valve stem choice may indeed be one confounding factor.
Both on Velocity or ENVE rims since that is all I own...So I don't think the varible in getting a tire seated is as much rim as it is design variables of the tire bead. The good performing Conti's had a flange inboard of the bead cord that looked specially designed to catch the inflation air for a tight seal against the rim shelf. The difficult Panaracer/Compass tires had no such feature. In back-to-back A/B tests, it doesn't take much imagination to see the air-catching flange of the Conti's works as intended.
I recently bought some Valve stems/cores for a tubeless set up. On my bench I also had a few OEM stems/cores kickin' around from etiher Giant or Special-ed. Long story short: I mixed/matched them up & after much frustration, it was discovered that the OEM stem/cores had a much larger bore than the off-the-shelf model to allow much greater air flow. Even if the valve itself was the same. The larger bore stems made all the difference in the world.
I guess the moral of the story for anyone reading this is: Even if the rims are held as a constant, some tires & some valve stems are better than others. Valve stem choice may indeed be one confounding factor.
In terms of stems... those were a frustration for me, but not for the air flow reason. I like to use the syringe-type sealant injectors/removers and, yeah, many stems have bore restrictions that keep the tube from passing all of the way through. Muc-Off has some aluminum stems that seem to be readily available, though, and they're large/smooth bore, so that's what I've been using the last couple years.
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I've got 28c S Works Turbo's on a pair of Zipp 303s and run those at 60/65. Riding those on the Roubaix makes cracks in the road disappear.
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I had tubeless for a year. Same kind of experiences. I put clinchers back on. I HATE wheels that were designed for tubeless. With great passion. I just swaped my fairly new wheels, built for tubeless, with a much older pair I have. I commute often. I cannot afford to ahve a flat make me miss a class I'm supposed to teach, if I get a flat with tubes, I can change it and still be on time. If I have a problem with tubeless (and I did, several times, getting holes that did NOT seal), I'm screwed.
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Having said that I do think Mavic UST should work well, I just found a better deal on the Bonty wheels and liked the idea of more tire options, although (much) more so on road, it definitely matters which tire/tube combination you select for tubeless. Which is lame, especially since one often has to learn that empirically.
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I had tubeless for a year. Same kind of experiences. I put clinchers back on. I HATE wheels that were designed for tubeless. With great passion. I just swaped my fairly new wheels, built for tubeless, with a much older pair I have. I commute often. I cannot afford to ahve a flat make me miss a class I'm supposed to teach, if I get a flat with tubes, I can change it and still be on time. If I have a problem with tubeless (and I did, several times, getting holes that did NOT seal), I'm screwed.
Last edited by Branko D; 09-14-21 at 03:14 AM.
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Redbullet, I have the same exact issue with the Vittoria Corsa Speed 2.0 25c tires. I have FIVE useless tires because they have what look like pinhole punctures but the sealant will not seal them. A couple weeks ago I went back to my Rubino Pro Speed 25c tires with Vittoria latex tubes and what a breath of fresh air! With the tubes I can pump up my tires to my preferred pressure of 95 psi (the Corsa Speed tubeless tires struggled to hold even 85 because so much air leaks through the tires), I got a more comfortable, supple ride and reduced my rolling resistance. The better ride and the lower rolling resistance was evident from the first pedal stroke. You may wonder why I didn't simply put tubes in the Corsa Speeds. The reason is the Corsa Speeds have almost nil puncture protection, and unless you're a TDF time trialist, you need to rely on sealant sealing the punctures, which you and I have seen doesn't work. I think the issue is with typical road usage, the higher pressure ejects the sealant thru' the puncture before the rubber in the sealant gets a chance to coagulate. I noticed a number of times sealant would squirt out of the pinhole punctures on the Corsa Speeds until the pressure reduced to a certain amount - usually 40 - 60 psi. As soon as I pumped the tire back up to 80 psi, the sealant would start squirting again thru the same hole until the pressure came down.
I also have Conti 5000 TL 28c mounted tubeless on another bike. I haven't had any punctures on them yet, so I don't know how they will compare to the Vittoria Corsa Speeds in terms of sealing. However, they hold air MUCH better than the Vittoria Corsa Speeds. The Conti's apparently have a built in lining within the carcass which helps to hold the air in as well as provides superior puncture protection. However, the ride on the Conti 5000 TLs is noticeable harsher than the Corsa Speeds. Which makes sense since the Conti's have a much heavier carcass.
I also have Conti 5000 TL 28c mounted tubeless on another bike. I haven't had any punctures on them yet, so I don't know how they will compare to the Vittoria Corsa Speeds in terms of sealing. However, they hold air MUCH better than the Vittoria Corsa Speeds. The Conti's apparently have a built in lining within the carcass which helps to hold the air in as well as provides superior puncture protection. However, the ride on the Conti 5000 TLs is noticeable harsher than the Corsa Speeds. Which makes sense since the Conti's have a much heavier carcass.
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That said, these punctures can be repaired via patches. Any cut bigger than a pinhole and the casing bulges when you patch and inflate them, though - they are just really delicate, paperthin tires. Not representative of road tubeless in general.
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My experience with that tire is similar, but it is marketed as a timetrial specific tire. It is not intended for typical road usage and while for me it was an interesting experiment trying to use them as a road tire, they are just too delicate... Not representative of road tubeless in general.
But the Vittoria Corsa Speeds roll oh sooooo fast. It sure was good while it lasted!
Last edited by BikeOnForever; 09-16-21 at 10:39 PM.
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I got this in my tire today around 45 miles into my what was suppose to be a 65 mile ride. Obviously, I cut the ride short and headed back to the house, but I did not flat and I made it home. Once I got home, it was only then did I realize that I picked up the entire 3" 10 penny nail. I used my dynaplug and it seems to be holding, but on the safe side I am going to pull the tire and check the rim and see what the inside damage looks like on the tire. I would hate to have to replace it as it only has about 150 miles on it. Might try some crazy glue in the hole as well.