jrg1244

Ugh. The despair. I have drooled with desire over a set of Gen 1 Phil Wood Hubs for many moons. Finally, and much to my surprise, a 1976 Bertin that I bought on eBay came equipped with a set of Gen 1 Phil Hubs in beautiful condition. They were laced to some old Schwinn Approved 27" rims, which I promptly disassembled in order to send the hubs to San Jose for an overhaul and new sealed bearings. I was dreaming of lacing them with new Sapim spokes and Pacenti Brevets or H Plus Son TB14 Rims in 700c. Now, as I look at these hubs, I have a 40 hole rear and a 36 hole front. It doesn't seem like there are many options for a C&V styled rim available in both 40 and 36 hole drillings. I've explored a couple of Velocity options, but they seem heavy and not C&V appropriate. I see that the Sun Rhyno Lite might be an option, but it seems that it would require about 35mm tires due to internal width. Is anyone aware of a rim that might fit the bill?

Piff 

What tire width are you hoping to run?

I seem to remember reading about Sheldon only using half of the spoke holes on a hub for a rim before, like a 36h hub and 18h rims perhaps...though I cannot recall where on his website.

jrg1244

I was hoping to run 28s, but I don't think that will work on the wider Sun Rhyno Lites, which are 22mm inside and 27.4mm outside...

As a test, I slid in a set of 700c Pacenti Brevets with 30c Vittoria Corsas from my '74 Paramount. It's hard to tell from a picture, but I can just fit a 6mm hex between the 30c tire and the chainstay, so approximately 42mm clearance, from my math. The seat stay and brake bridge have plenty of room for more tire. Maybe I could run 35mm tires? Does that violate some C&V rule?

Piff 

I think you are mistaken regarding cr18 rims after checking up on them. They're 18mm internal width as the name implies, so 25mm and above is fine. Also, I can't find anything online with 40h. Perhaps the 40h version is no longer made?

non-fixie 

36/40 was a typical touring combo, BITD. A popular touring rim was the Weinmann concave rim. Not easy to clean, but very strong. NOS examples do pop up from time to time, but I wouldn't mind a used set in good condition.

I have two sets of 36/40 touring wheels. Both with Maxi-car hubs. One is laced to Mavic Module 4 rims, the other to a set of Super Champion Model 58's. Lovely, but harder to find.

jrg1244

Good eye. My fault. I meant Sun Rhyno Lite, which is available in 40h and 36h but is essentially a MTB rim from my view.

steelbikeguy

That does make me wonder what could be done.

Perhaps you can just ignore 4 holes in each of the rear flanges? i.e. ignore one hole at the 12:00 position, one at the 3:00 position, 6:00, and 9:00.
It'll throw off the spoke lengths slightly. Might have to spend a little time with the equation for spoke length to be sure of how much.
In the worst case scenario.. such as 4x, I think it would add (or subtract) half of the distance between spoke holes. That would be for the spokes next to the empty holes. The difference would be less as you moved away from the empty spokes.

If you could get by with one spoke length, where some are slightly long and some are slightly short, then this might be practical.

Steve in Peoria

WGB 

I have a set of NOS Nashbar 40 hole, 27s

Pm me if interested.
I'm away for a week starting Monday.

No wear, and whoops!
I have to rotate the photo...

dedhed

only made in 590 (26 x 1 3/8)

dedhed

Did you look at Velocity Atlas?

jrg1244

Just checked those out... They look super nice. Very heavy though. Definitely an option though! Anyone have experience with the Atlas rims?

RustyJames 

Someone may correct me but 36/40H and light weight aren’t a “thing” since that set up is touring use and light weight isn’t the primary objective.

Jeff Wills

As you said, not really C&V. Perhaps you could talk to Velocity directly and ask about silver Dyad or Atlas rims.

https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...SABEgJS9PD_BwE

nlerner

I recently built up a Sun Rhyno Lite 40-hole 700c rim with a Sturmey Archer IGH. The “Lite” part of the name definitely does not refer to the weight—it’s heavy! I also could only find a black rim with silver sidewalls, so not completely old school.

1989Pre 

Super Champion Gentleman.

kroozer 

Kinlin ADHN, these are 700C with single eyelets and a polished finish, 24 mm wide, and come in 32, 36, 40 and 48 hole drilling.

https://www.hubjub.co.uk/kinlin-adhn--mld-101-p.asp

JohnDThompson 

Velocity Fusion is also available in 36 and 40 hole drilling.
https://www.velocityusa.com/product/rims/fusion-622

Jeff Wills

Sun also makes “Rhyno” rims, which are about 2mm wider than the (ahem) “Lite” version.

79pmooney

A very strong rim. And probably the stiffest side-to-side ever made. (I had a fellow sprinter take 8 consecutive right spokes out of my front wheel in a town line spring. Wheel still ran through the fork and I rode the bike to a stop. Replaced the spokes and it was like brand new. Yes,the tire did scrub the fork paint to bare metal but on the inside where it was near impossible to see. Summer of '79 on my brand new Mooney,)

I meet the Velocity crew at the Portland bike show. Asked them about sewup rims. They had one as I recalled but encouraged me to call them if I had questions. Struck me as being a passionate bunch in a small company that wants to get their rims out there. Like they'd welcome a call from you. I've been riding their Aero rims for years. Joys to build, last a long time and stay true. Clean up easily. Not the structural fortresses of the Weinmann Concave but still, denting one hitting a rock or pothole is something I haven't managed yet and they are my preferred city/commute/winter rim so they hit plenty.

Road Fan

Another related point is the Raleigh 3-speeds, which used 32 spokes front 4x lacing and 40 hole rear (SA hub, such as AW) laced 3x. When I replaced my steel rims with Super Champion alloys, the spoke calculator gave me the same spoke for front and rear. I also did a test calculation for 40/36, without the same result - needed two different spokes for front and rear. So I don't see any benefit to 40r 36f.

clubman 

Let me derail this completely by being a total pedant while pointing out the rims are not front and rear specific. Here's a pair of 40 front, 36 rear tandem track hubs from the 30's. I do have EA1 rims to suit but no frame, of course.

Road Fan

Why was the 36/40 combo good for touring? Wouldn't 36/36 be just as good, or perhaps better?

One argument against 32/40 is better, is that Raleigh was a megavolume manufacturer, and over the 20th century an amazingly large set of manufacturers were trained and coached by Henry Ford in the attitudes, values, and techniques for success in mass production. So if for a given bike model one an minimize component diversity, perhaps by reducing the number of spoke sizes which are to be set out on the assembly line. It may have saved maybe a nickel for each unit, but at a production level of 1 M, that's a savings of 5 million cents, or $500,000. a year. That's real money.

So for Raleigh to go ahead and commonize components across three bikes badged with liveries from Raleigh, Rudge, and Humber, already saved a lot of money, and the use of common spokes added to the gravy as I described.

Road Fan

Thanks for that refreshing piece of pedantry!

But my wheels are laced up with Super Champion Modelle 58s, on 40-32 drilled hubs.

non-fixie 

Spoke compression at the bottom of the wheel is distributed across more spokes, which is a meaningful advantage for heavier riders and/or loads. And the rear wheel generally takes most of the weight. The touring bikes on which my observation is based are (semi-)custom machines by touring bike specialists like Vittorio and Snel, for whom economies of scale wouldn't have been much of a consideration.

Whether their popularity was based on them actually being better or just customer perception can be read here. I think ...

Calculation of rim deflection and spoke tension on a bicycle wheel

Road Fan

Yes, the paper can be accessed and read. I have skimmed it and have some background in the math, but am not planning the in-depth read needed to see all the implications of the math. What I do get is that the stability of the rim can be improved with a deeper rim section and more spokes. It may be possible with such modeling capability to see design optima and how “potholes in the parh might be avoided.” But these are not new insights, so while they tend to justify 40 sp versus 36, there are still a lot of challenging questions from a broader engineering point of view:

• How are stresses in rims and spokes affected? Fatigue is still the killer of metal mechanical elements under cyclical stress.
• Are any traditional designs revealed to be suboptimal?
• How do these modeling results compere with FEA? Are there cross-validation issues?
• Can optimal criteria be set for wheel engineering with the safest failure modes?
• When specific wheel designs which take advantage of this research are developed to optimize in a true product design process, will the target metrics be significantly improved?

When you are going to design for strict performance improvement, use models such as this to eke out a few more grams or reduce the spoke count by a few. But when you must engineer a new spoked wheel strategy to save the customer base and the manufacturing function millions, and to improve consumer value commensurately, one must use CAE, to model durability, find possible optima, and conduct extended testing to determine what choices are actually better and to determine revised durability limits.

The cost savings in using only one spoke specification sheet on a give assembly line might still be significant, even after the math models indicate where the rim thicknesses could be better. I see this papar as having more potential value for a senior wheel design or systems engineer, than a home ot small shop wheel builder.