bbbean 

Is that really your choice? You're EITHER going to get lighter wheels OR eat less? "I bought an 800 gr wheelset, so now I can sit on the couch and drink beer" vs "I'll run steel wheels off a 1974 Walmart bike, but quit eating pizza, so it will even out"?

False dichotomy, IMHO. If you're serious about racing, you're going to trim as much weight as you can off both bike and rider, and put the effort into training. Training, fitness, gear - improvements in any of these is an improvement. Improvements in all of these will make you *much* faster.

Another factor worth considering is motivation. I'm far more motivated to get out and ride and push myself after I've invested in the best gear I can afford. If I'm sitting on the couch, I can hear my bike (and the money I spent) calling me. When I had a bike I didn't like as much, and wasn't as invested in, it was a lot easier to let it collect cobwebs.

At any rate, If I get dropped, it'll be because the other guys were faster/smarter/fitter, and not because my wheels (or frame, or group, or...) slowed me down.

BB

Ygduf

lighter wheels = more $$$ in wheels and less $$$ to spend on food. Win. Win.

Racer Ex 

The equation is a lot more complex than plugging numbers into a calculator. Performance on a climb is affected by what efforts went before the climb. On longer stages with flatter or rolling lead-ins where conditions either from the race or weather had you eating wind aerodynamics might mean an energy savings that will let you perform better on the climb(s) than if you were on a lighter, non aero bike. That's assuming your position is the same on both bikes and your CdA is lower on the aero bike.

On the other hand on a lighter bike might be the ticket on a stage with multiple climbs.

In the end you're looking at net energy expenditure. The lower the better.

hack

Obviously its not an either or type of thing. It's easy to get caught up in chasing performance by buying newer, better, lighter gear and forgetting you're likley to achieve similar or better performance improvements by getting out and riding more/smarter (and shedding weight via body weight loss). This excludes the extreme situations where someone owns a WalMart Denali or similar.

I tend the view the bike and the cyclist as part of one system and knocking a few hundred grams off one part of the system may not have as big of an impact as knocking several pounds off the other part of the system. Furthermore, for the average racer (by this I mean new to the game cat5s and maybe cat4 racers) it will likely be easier to knock the pounds off the body than the pounds off the bike and ultimately more beneficial to knock the pounds off the body than the bike. The value of dropping weight will vary person to person and bike to bike. Motivational factors will also vary person to person.

With all that said, I could easily drop 10 pounds, but still bought the light wheels and group set .

tetonrider

hack, these are not mutually exclusive things. losing x# off the body is the same as losing x# off the bike. fortunately, one can lose weight off of both, just as one can gain power and lose weight (if done carefully).

i agree with your choice. if all else is equal (and at the speeds us average amateur racers climb an 8 or 10% grade the aero differences between "aero" wheels are about the same), then it makes sense to go aero and light.

unfortunately, all things are never the same and in the case of buying a wheel there's cost, build quality, serviceability, looks, the fact that (for most) they'll be used in varied circumstances, etc.

i happen to have a venge and a tarmac. the venge is more aero. it weighs ~150g more than the tarmac. in all but the most rare circumstance (e.g. my hill climb @ 10%, racing UP only), the aero gain of the venge outweighs the 150g hit.

you don't see many? granted, the ones i tend to do are at big regional stage races, but i see SO many.

for a weekly series, maybe people don't want to risk crashing (skin suit would have higher replacement cost) or maybe they think it is not worth it, or they bike there (and want pockets)...any number of reasons.

well....most shoe covers that you see are not aerodynamically an improvement. but most people don't test...

good question. guessing it is just $$ for most. in changing winds, wheels >80mm are noticeably more difficult to handle and are less versatile. therefore, if someone wants to save money they'd probably get more value in the 40-60mm depth range...AND if they were into TTs they'd probably maybe have the >80 front and a disc, not a >80 rear.

good point.

in general, narrow is better at low yaw. you raise a good point of considering the target audience of each company. some companies focus on age group triathletes who might go 20mph on their bike for 5h. very different typical yaw than, say, a cat 1 TTer in a 20k.

i answered earlier in the thread. you didn't post your weight (we could infer a bunch from it), but assuming average lean cyclist and associated cat 2/3/master A power, it's 10" for 30' so ~20" for 60.

as for what those 20" are worth in $ terms, that's highly personal. maybe it is worth exactly $0 to a guy who is already winning by 2', or to someone who is just riding for fun. maybe it is worth $2k to someone who has the disposable cash...or to the guy who went 1:00:19 last year and wants to go 59:59 next year. who knows?

we think alike.


you left off the next sentence in your quote of my post, but i think we agree more than disagree.

in theory, the aero-but-heavier gizmo saved you energy on the way to the climb, or on the way down the hill. maybe one gets to the hill 3s faster than the group but climbs 3s slower. maybe one saved 10-15w over the course of 2h on the way to that hill so can dig a little deeper to close a gap.

or maybe not.

there are certainly exceptions, but the decisive moments in *most* amateur racing in the US tend to be on the shorter side. we're rarely climbing for an hour (not even at the gila), so these gains we're talking are pretty tiny.

i don't mean to say they're not significant...if one is so on the edge that that pound is the difference between making the split and not, it is what it is.

for that average cyclist i spoke of above, the pound saved over that hour = 20".... but ONE watt more power gets you 10" back. so, again, sometimes 2w is the difference in a race, but not often (IMO/IME).

we go with what feels right to us, so i'm not saying your choice was wrong. i don't have much info.

BUT.....let's say your climb was 10' at 8-10%, that's about 3" max, and you got some benefit from the deeper wheels, either along the way or on the shallower sections of the climb or after. now, i know what it is like to be just 1m behind an echelon--the last guy not to make the first echelon--so 3" or even 1" can be insurmountable.....but what if without those deep wheels you would have spent more energy on the way to that climb, so that in reality you would have been 10" back instead of 1 or 2 or 3" behind? maybe the deep wheels made it seem closer than it otherwise would have been?

i dunno--just thinking aloud. i know little to nothing about your race and the other variables, so please don't take this as me presuming anything about your decision.

when possible, i like light and aero. generally if we descend what we climb (and esp at lower grades), the weight penalty has to be pretty damn huge to negate the aero benefits, and honestly the weight differences between parts that come up for me and probably for most on this forum aren't enough to warrant choosing a light-but-not-aero part.

i'd tell most people to choose gear for when they feel the most decisive moment of a race will come. cross-winds on flats? aero. finishing climb at the gila? *maybe* weight. but i also would say to consider what happens leading up to that decisive moment.

gsteinb

So let's say you can save 30 seconds as was posited above. What's the dollar value on that?

Homebrew01

41

Are you trolling ?

tetonrider

He keeps trying!

I think gsteinb should buy some 202s from me, so I'm going to say the value of 20" = the cost of 202s.

And while it is true for most that a pound saved on wheels is equal to a pound on the frame or a pound on the body for THESE wheels a pound saved is worth, like, 10 pounds elsewhere.

gsteinb

Ex posed the question not too long ago about buying speed. Here's a way to buy speed (for certain events). Question is for a given improvement is the cost justified to you.

globecanvas

My "light" wheels are basically nice training wheels, 1475g alloy rims, nice hubs, 24/28 spokes. Aero wheels are 1750g Jet 6s.

Getting meaningfully lighter than 1475g probably means carbon tubulars. Every now and then I geek out window shopping online and think about buying a set of Stinger 3s or similar.

But, I would probably only use the Stingers for 4-6 races a year at most, and the thing that keeps me from pulling the trigger is partly the thought of spending a couple thousand dollars for something I'll use a few times a year, and almost more so the thought of having to change brake pads for those races. Maybe it's psychological, but in those 4-6 races a year, I feel like I have an advantage descending while everyone else's brakes are squealing and squeaking, and especially when somebody overheats a carbon rim and blows a tire.

I'm always open to somebody making a good argument why I should buy new expensive toys though

thechemist

Well, when it comes to wheels I think I have a pretty easy answer for me. It was a bit hard to come up with a specific dollar amount but I am running tubular zipp 404s and I think that is worth it. Do i think Zipp/HED/Enve is worth the R & D over Boyd,Flo,Williams etc. ? Yes! Are reynold RZR and lightweights worth it? No, not at this point. I could see myself springing for RZR or lightweights down the road especially with their warranty program but currently my answer would be $2500 dollar wheels are worth it.

Now I would consider a company like Flo with excellent R & D in aerodynamics over zipp or similar to a point but I value aero much more than weight.

Creatre

Get directly from china. They make some 900g tubular wheelsets for $600. Good stuff.

I stick with clinchers though. I don't like flats. I ride 50mm 1450g carbon clinchers full time. Mix between aero and light.