67tony 

My brother's B17, about a year old, has broken in so well that he had to tension the nut to remove the sagging. Is this about right, or does it seem too early? Is it possible that, after this initial tensioning, it won't have to be done for quite a while? The saddle has had Proofide twice, he rides about 100 miles/week in season (Michigan!) and he weighs about 150 lbs.

In fact, the sag in the sit-bones area, combined with a nose-up tendency of the B17, may have contributed to a UTI he is currently recovering from. (He's a bit dismayed that his Florida training schedule has been interrupted, since he's planning a southern coast-to-coast trip in the spring!)

Is that type of softening normal for a Brooks?
Is twice a year about the right Proofide schedule?
Anybody punch holes and use a shoelace to keep the sides from splaying out?

seeker333

Sounds like it's new saddle time.

Brooks saddles do sag, if you weigh much at all, or get them wet, and this bothers some people more than others. Many Brooks owners think the hammocky shape of their sagging saddle is perfect and comfort beyond compare. Others like myself need a sag-free saddle, and I can assure you this will never happen with a tensioned leather saddle.

If you treat the leather with anything it will only hasten the sag. Tightening the bolt will help a little but won't eliminate sag, plus it'll only stretch more with use and you'll be back where you started.

You can tie a saggy Brooks and it'll help a little, but it's really not worth the trouble IMO. I have done it myself.

I recommend trying another saddle, pretty much anything that's not tensioned leather. Selle Italia, Selle San Marco and Fizik come to mind.

Aubergine 

I don't agree with seeker333. The adjustment bolt is ther so the seat can be tightened up. There is no reason to get a new seat unless there is no further adjustment.

As for whether the softening is "normal", remember that leather is organic. Different pieces of leather will respond differently to the weight of a rider. It doesn't seem to unusual to me that your brother's seat needs tightening. I have an old Ideale model 39 on my Peugeot, and I have had to adjust it a couple times in the year I have used the saddle. It has lots of life left in it.

MassiveD

Modest tightening of the bolt, just to make up for settling of fasteners, or whatever, I have not had to do, but I can see it as being harmless. But if at the end of whatever you are doing, you have a hammock, not a more or less rigid piece of leather that has depressions under the sit bones, then you have a shot saddle. That is not normal, and should not happen in short order, whatever caused it. One of the more common problems is water from the road.

I have this Brooks I watched pretty carefully it had 2500 miles on it, was ridden about half the time in the rain, normally with a cover, the underside was proofhided, and at the time in question I weighed 250-270. Other than the sit bone depressions it looks showroom new.

mrFreel

I want to add that i adjust my b17 to be slightly nose down when you compare the front to back edges. This compensates for the molding that has taken place.
Mike

tarwheel 

FWIW, I would suggest that your brother pick up a Fizik Vitesse, which is close to the size and shape of a B17. I had B17s on two bikes until I got a Vitesse in a trade. The Vitesse is just as comfortable or more so, and weighs less than half as much in ti rail version. You can often buy them used or like new on eBay for cheap prices. Why? Because Fizik markets the Vitesse as a woman's saddle, although it is nearly identical to the "manly" Aliante except 1-2 cm wider.

i now have Vitesse saddles on all five of my bikes. Most I bought on eBay for prices ranging from $10-30. They last a long time, although I've had some of them recovered, mainly to match color schemes on my bikes.

irwin7638

I doubt that any special maintenance will be needed. He might need to adjust the tension once every year or two now, but not more than a 1/4 turn at a time. Some like to lace the bottoms of the saddle to prevent splaying. I haven't seen the need in the past 40 years I've used them. Proofide or mink oil paste once or twice a year seems to work for me.

Marc

staehpj1

I had a similar issue with the one and only B17 I have owned. It was just OK when new and went down hill from there. I'd suggest trying something else.

djb

take a few photos of the seat, its worth a few thousand words apparently.
Ive seen someone with a B17 that was only 6mths old or so (1 season of riding) that was so sagged it was ridiculous. The young fellow in question couldnt believe that mine had X years on it compared to his, but as he put it, it had been ridden on wet "only a few times", which probably meant he left it out in the rain sometimes and then rode on the very soaked leather , which resulted in the great sag he had on his pretty much newish bike seat.

I've been riding the last 5 seasons on one of my Brooks with somewhere like 10-12000km on it and the depressions in it from my sitbones have not significantly increased from when I bought it used.

In the end, as Staeph says, its just a seat, and another non leather brand that works for him well enough would probably be a safer bet for future use, as you just dont have to worry about keeping them dry.

put up some photos if you can though.

Bottom line is that you only want the leather to take the shape of your sitbones, properly taken care of (ie, not let it get wet and then ride, as well as keeping proofide to a minimum and not using any leather softening stuff) the rest of the leather part should not sag, and will not if you follow the basic care of these types of saddles.

ps: re Proofide, my experience is that you dont really need to put it on twice a year, I have put just a really small amount on maybe once a year (on the top) and its been fine.

I did however do the "melt a bunch on the underside" thing when I got my two B17s, and in hindsight, if I were to get another one, I would put a much smaller amount on the underside and top and do the hair dryer thing to melt it in. My feeling is that overdoing the proofide bit is a factor in how much sagging happens.

Its also been said that compared to Brooks of the past, the leather is not as thick on regular B17s as before, so this can play a part as well in how a given saddle reacts to either over proofhiding, using leather softeners, or being ridden when soaked.
Also, the "pre-aged" B17's are already starting off with a softer leather, so this could be a factor too if thats what he has.

MRT2

Hmm. I have a B17 I purchased in 2012 and has been my go to saddle ever since. I don't ride all that much during the winter months, but I do ride at least several times a week in season. I would say I have maybe 3,500 miles on the saddle since I bought it. No sag at all, The saddle is still quite firm. I proofhide the saddle once or twice a year. It has gotten wet, but never soaked. A couple of times when I got caught out in a downpour, I covered the saddle with a plastic bag.

Tourist in MSN

I use a different model of Brooks, but all leather Brooks are about the same.

I had several days of rain on a tour and when I got home and let everything dry out I concluded that my saddle had developed too much sag. I am careful to use a waterproof cover when it rains and always at night when stored outside. But sometimes when you are in perennial rain, it will still get wet.

I am an engineer, so sometimes I get a bit excessive in my record keeping, which I just checked. In this case when I put a straight edge on the top from front to back, I measured 9mm of sag in the middle of the saddle. I tightened the nut one full turn on the nut. That decreased sag to 7mm. I did not want to get too aggressive in trying to restore it to minimal sag, so I stopped there. I rode it 15 miles and decided that it felt too tight, so I then loosened it by one third of a turn on the nut.

And reapplied Proofide again after that. When I apply it, I put it on top and under the bottom. And I let it soak in well, sometimes I put the saddle with freshly applied Proofide in a sealed plastic bag and let it sit in the sun on a hot day to warm up the leather to help it soak in.

I then used that saddle for several thousand miles around home and a 892 mile bike tour. And the saddle is still in use.

I have seen some saddles that have a huge amount of sag, but I can't ride that way. I went on a group tour, one of the Brooks owners put his bike upside down to check the tires for sharp bits, etc. Left his bike turned upside down during the night. And we had a huge rain storm in the night. The next morning when I got up, his Brooks was literally sitting in a puddle, but by the time I took the photo the puddle had soaked into the ground some so that his Brooks was no longer partly underwater. That is not a good way to use a Brooks. But his Brooks already had so much sag in it, not sure if this changed anything.

rhm

I had the problem @67tony describes on two Brooks saddles I bought new in 2007. Both became so soft that I had to replace them after less than a year of riding. This had never happened with older Brooks saddles I've owned, and (rightly or wrongly, I don't know) I came to the conclusion Brooks saddles are not as tough as they used to be.

It was for this reason I learned to recover them. I use much thicker leather than Brooks does, and my saddles seem to hold up better than current Brooks output. At least, that's my hope (none of mine are much more than five years old at this point).

Punching and lacing the sides changes the saddle profoundly. It makes the top much firmer, much less flexible. I don't recommend it except on saddles with a big cutout on the top, like the Brooks Imperial.

djb

About them getting wet in rain, either with plastic bags or the brooks covers for them, mine haven't gotten wet as such even when ridden in lengthy rain.
While certainly not scientific, it seems to me that my seats have become rather damp from super sweaty riding days as being under a cover in the rain. It's not like I check my seat under the cover during the rain, but sunny day sweaty riding certainly shows the leather being quite damp.
I'll p put up a photo of my seat sometime for comparison.

PS, I have rear fenders on my bikes, so no up spray from tires.

MRT2

That is true, but for some reason, it does not result in excessive sagging, at least for me. I suspect it is the same thing with a good pair of leather dress shoes. Treat them every so often, don't let them get soaked in the rain, or snow, and they handle my sweaty feet with aplomb.

djb

A couple of summers ago I did a trip in the states where there were a bunch of days of 95 100f, 35 37c? and what I remember that my very sweaty b17 seemed to have more flex to it from the moisture in it. Nothing you can do, and I imagine it stretched the leather a bit, but they do have a finite lifespan yet mine is still very comfortable for me 3 riding seasons later.
At the other end of the scale my seats seem a bit more stiff in cold riding weather. Could be my imagination though...

LeeG

Why not try a saddle with greater consistency in performance regardless of conditions or care?

djb

Lee, me or the guy asking about his brothers bike?

LeeG

Sorry, the guy with the brother. I figure for the cost of a Brooks and the fact touring bikes may be left out in the rain having something lower maintainence, cheaper and quite possibly more comfortable would be worth considering.

67tony 

Thanks for the replies. My brother is back on his bike, after tensioning the saddle and lowering the nose. He says it feels better, and will know more after a few more rides.

One of the reasons for the post is to wonder if the saddle is defective, sagging too much too soon. With all the factors involved, that's probably a difficult claim to make.

rekmeyata

I have a B17 that is almost 15 years old and still going strong, there is no reason that these saddles can't last at least 30 years! If treated correctly that is. Given the longevity of a Brooks it the long run it's way cheaper than a foam covered plastic saddle regardless of any maintenance you have to do to it. I've seen barn find Brooks saddles that were 70 years old and were still functional! If you are leaving the bike out in the rain any leather product can become ruined and this why you need to buy a saddle cover to protect it.

If you follow the manufactures care instructions (especially for the first 2 years) a Brooks will last a long time. I did alter the manufacturer's recommendations a bit by using a neutral Kiwi paste wax instead of the Proofide because I think it holds up better against water, I also don't turn spanner bolt as much as the manufacture suggests because I haven't needed too, and if a person only weighs 150 pounds you shouldn't have to tighten it after the initial break in more than once every 3 years, I weigh 168 and I haven't tightened mine in 3 years, and then I only tighten enough to make it snug which is about a quarter of a turn.

If you tried breaking in your saddle using water or oil (that some Brooks know it all owners have been telling people to do) then you're saddle may be ruined. Brooks has been making their saddles for over 100 years and I kind of think they would know best how to care for them.

djb

Your comments certainly have merit, my problem now is that my b17s work for me, so I'd have to find something that would be as good as they are in getting along with my derrière and co.
The rubber c17 or whatever is maybe one but you're still looking at a 200 buck "maybe"....

djb

Tony, I finally realised that a level b17 works better for me, and as we can't know what he has done with his, it's really hard to comment on the sag.
Hope it works out for him and his trip. If it doesn't, life is too short for being on an uncomfortable seat, so if it doesn't work, he'll just have to start some bike seat shopping and testing.

seeker333

C17 seems better WRT to structural durability than the tensioned leather saddles. However, the canvas surface is known for fraying/wearing pretty quickly, starting at the edges and moving inwards. The canvas also abrades bike shorts. The rivet-like fasteners are actually a nut and bolt affair that Brooks failed to assemble with Loctite, so they tend to fall out.

Probably in a few years most Brooks saddles will more closely resemble Fizik saddles than the current B17.

fietsbob

Being in a town with a lot of cycletourists passing through (hundreds a summer) every once in a while I see Brooks saddles..

that have taken on a very personal shape .. the riders kept on riding.. many passport stamps.

I have 2 Brooks Pros, one bought in the mid 70s the other in early 90's.. My touring bikes..

they are off bikes now in the basement..

my daily rides are 'Pleather' covered, for care free wet weather use, year around .. currently ..
Fizik Vitesse made for Brompton [Black, steel rails] (still have plastic bags deployed.. )


BTW Brooks and Fizik are both owned by a larger Italian company Now ..

MassiveD

I don't know what is in proofhide, but there is no mystery to making a dubbing that does not soften leather, and there is no amount of such materials that will soften the leather. Maybe putting it on hot is a bad idea. There are a lot of things were people cast about for some mystery solution to go one step better, when all that is required is to follow instructions as they are set out. I suppose one could say that about coating the bottom, but I am not stopping that.

leather today can be different than in was in the past. This has to do with modern factory farming, and where the animals in question live, and what kind of tanning process is used. Presumably Brooks is well aware of all these variables, and their seats depend on reliable performance of the hides, and the UK is one of the places that has a long tradition of leatherwork of the highest order, and one of the few places were real oak tanned leather is still being made, but who knows.

Thinning the leather seems unlikely as there is well enough material in a hide to do a double brooks, and the cost of thick leather is not really significantly greater than thin leather. What costs is the basic quality and top grain. You would only at best be saving a thin split over maybe a half to a full square foot. Not worth it if one is not inclined to blow one's reputation out the door.

What has changed even more than the hides and manufacturing is the general sensibleness and understanding of leather in the public. Few people these days have any substantial contact with leather or any real knowledge of how to use and care for it. Much of the discussion around breaking in a Brooks shows this all to clearly, or caring for one.