Smaug1

Why do you assume this and state it as a fact?

You forget that a lot of the companies selling eBikes now, through the likes of Amazon and AliExpress are Chinese mushroom companies. If it ever gets to that, they will just close the business, move down the block and re-open under a new name rather than deal with any aftermath.
Transit regulations, like UN 38.3 address some things that overlap with safety standards, but not nearly enough. Unless/until they have to be safety certified as a requirement for clearing customs, (as NYC is starting to do for products sold in the city) it's not going to work with the less reputable mushroom companies. That's my opinion. ;-)

2old

I purchased a LiFePO4 battery from a supposedly reputable Chinese company for a friend several years ago, and paid a premium for shipping. When it arrived the label indicated it was a battery charger. It won't surprise me if Chinese companies ship ebikes which are identified as other products. As above, if there's a problem they'll change their name and move down the street.

late

They won't be able to import batteries that are not UL certified.

Regulation works, you can't have the Modern world without it. It does have to be done right, but developed countries have been doing it since the 1800s... it can be done.

Smaug1

False. See the 3rd paragraph of Post #74.
For one thing, there are other NRTLs besides UL and for another, certification is not nationally required in the USA. (yet)

FBinNY 

I don't think we disagree, but it turns on the definition of "major player".
I mean it to include those companies with significant USA presence, ie. retail dealerships, orphysical presence with offices, warehouses and inventory here.

I also agree that the challenge will always be those companies who sell direct retail from overseas. I've basically said this a few times earlier in the thread. I've also said that the NYS law would only be a step along a long road.

Even federal standards will not plug all the holes, until/unless there's serious enforcement at the POE, and in the transit stream.

So count me an advocate of standards enforcement, but also a realist about effectiveness.

late

This needs, and deserves, enabling legislation. Which would result in criminal prosecution, fines and jail time should uncertified batteries cause damage.

Smaug1

I'll have to look to confirm, but I believe my Lectric XP Lite has only CE on the battery and full certification on the charger. (CE is self-declared for Europe, the manufacturer only has to be able to prove it if challenged by the government, so there are probably a LOT of un-certified products bearing only the CE marking)

They are the value leader of eBikes in the USA right now. But even they will only spend the money needed for certification if they have to. I'm sure they do some internal testing to satisfy themselves that their stuff is safe, but if it's not tightly-controlled...

My hope is that the manufacturers just raise the price by a few bucks rather than cut quality somewhere to make the certifications happen. Certification is expensive, so if a company is not selling many thousands of units, it's hard to justify.

FBinNY 

I'm comfortable with CE, especially from companies with strong market presence in Europe. Apparently, you are too, at least to a degree.

It means the battery is built to a reasonable standard, and that the maker has decent quality control.

Also consider that if 2 or 3 key states, ie. NY and CA mandate UL, it's effectively a national standard, since those markets are too important to ignore.

However, we all need to understand the Catch-22 of standards and/or regulation. It works fine with honest players, who willingly comply, but doesn't do much to stop those dishonest players, who build the shoddiest products.

BTinNYC 

When the regulators and insurers force the issue, certification will weed out the off-brands that won't/can't do the serious QA/QC. The smaller brands can buy their power systems from the manufacturers can certify their product. This is inevitable and appropriate. We can't buy a TV, PC or a toaster that is not meeting CE or UL standards.

mpetry912 

All true however the scenario I keep thinking about is when 3 or 4 ebike chargers are plugged into a cheap power strip and then into a 10A wall socket. Let's just say that ONE bike has an el cheapo charger with no thermal cutout. I'm in favor "certification" but there are economic factors (not to mention intelligence) that limit the effectiveness of technical or legislative controls.

/markp

FBinNY 

Nothing is foolproof, because fools are too ingenious

However, consider that both power strips and the mains are fuse protected. Not saying that your scenario couldn't cause a fire, just that it would take some effort.

I don't know the draw of chargers, but don't believe they're worse than all sorts of household appliances, so I don't consider their load to create a new hazard. OTOH, all the protections in the world can't stop someone from using an undersized extension and 2-prong adapter to make safe stuff hazardous. Nor would the most strongly worded warning keep some people from trying to charge a crash damaged battery.

But, just because we can't solving everything isn't a reason not to solve theveasy stuff.

One of the best bits if advice I got early in my career applies here --- "Don't sacrifice what's good on the altar of perfection".

FBinNY 

Interesting side note.

I was In Costco yesterday and noticed they had a kind of cute (superficially) E-bike for $699. Being interested because of this thread I decided to check the listed specs on the box. Note, the store was in lower NYS about 2 miles from the NYC city line, where battery certification is required.

The box had no info about the battery or charger certifications, though it had 6 or so symbols relating the box's recyclability. So, either the battery isn't certified, not even CE, or the maker doesn't bother showing it, figuring that nobody cares. Here's a simple example of the shortcomings of local battery laws, since they can't stop someone from shopping beyond the jurisdiction and bringing it back home.

So, while I'm happy that more places are recognizing the importance of establishing and enforcing standards, I'm very aware of the limitations. And if I weren't already, this would have been a wake up call.

cat0020

Bike shops are starting to get massive insurance hikes if they allow e-bikes into their shop (even for a tire issue or similar).
This thread:

( https://www.******.com/r/ebikes/comments/19d7l4l/ebikes_and_the_bike_shop_it_might_be_over )

shows a bike shop owner receiving a threat to cancel their insurance,
unless they pay > $23k/year (it's unclear how much of an increase this is, some people are saying it's 90-120%)
.
(SNIP)
E-bikes and the Bike shop. It might be over.

It’s unfortunate, but 1000s of shops are going to be getting these letters over the next few weeks.
One of the largest insurers of bike shops in the USA is dropping policies for shops that work on, sell, and rent e-bikes.
A lot of us on the inside of the industry have seen the writing on the wall for sometime.

We personally have been warning brands we work with over the potential issues of not having proper UL 2849 certifications,
and now this will be the new reality.
I found out insurance policies alone for these brands should range from $25k-50k annually,
for the longest time they were trying to push the insurance onto the shops, but now the policy makers are changing things up.

We were the only shop in our metropolitan city to work on e-bikes in the first place.
We’re going to fight it to the best of our abilities and look for other options, but if we’re not insured to work on something, we can’t touch it.

This is more or less a warning for the general public that there will likely be new policy changes in your neck of the woods.
Shops that use to work on e-bikes may not be able to or afford to anymore.

In reality, this is individual brands faults.
They want to pump bikes into the market as quickly as possible without proper certification and this is the result.
Of course they don’t want to hold the policies and push that onto the rest of us just trying to run a business.

The more you know…



To me, this is not specifically a to a brand issue, since there are only a handful of UL certified e-bikes.
Seems like this might have to change soon.

Shops will require certification of each bike model, so brands selling a ton of models (that are actually unique to the brand)
are going to have hundreds of thousands of dollars in certifications, if not more, in the future.

Simple solution would be to require batteries to removed and kept at owners house for mechanical servicing.
If this is happening then home insurance companies could exclude ebike battery fires.

https://ebikeescape.com/ul-certified...atteries-list/

Trakhak

Thanks. Sobering news for bike shops everywhere.

cat0020

Another huddle to jump through with regulations.
Amtrak changed their policy for Electric Bikes on trains earlier this month,
now requiring them to be "certified by a nationally recognized testing laboratory" https://www.amtrak.com/bring-your-bicycle-onboard
The wording isn't there but this implies only e-bikes that are certified to meet electrical safety standards UL 2849 for the bike or UL 2271 for batteries.

To bring a bike into a passenger car a folding bicycle must fit the dimensions of 34" x 15" x 48" (860 x 380 x 1120 mm)
and kept folded only in luggage storage areas at the end of the car (or, in Superliners, on the lower level),not stored folded in overhead racks.
Most folding e-bikes are larger than these dimensions so are only permitted to be stored in the bike rack train car, and you may have to pay a bicycle fee.

veganbikes

Oh no Amtrak wants to make their trains safer? The HORROR! I do not think the luggage cars are temperature regulated and I have to imagine they can get quite warm having been on a train when the power was out for a bit in the summer I know it got decently hot and Li-Ion doesn't like heat and a poorly managed battery in heat is not ideal.

And yes there are other issues that one could focus on that are important and related to whatever you want to relate to. That is not being discussed here as much as you would rather people focus on different issues instead of the issues being discussed. However as many people know you can work on many issues or work on one issue without being detrimental to other issues. I do it all the time and have for almost 2 decades now.

Smaug1

Other than trying to draw attention to yourself, I don't know what the purpose of that post was. cat was just sharing some news of new rules and you seem to have flown off the handle.

Trakhak

Coincidentally, I just today double-checked the spelling of "logorrhea".

ScottCommutes

Just to clarify - UL listing isn't "mandatory" for consumer products. It is legal and easy to get brand new non-UL approved electrical stuff from the likes of Amazon, Walmart, dollar stores, etc. Space heaters and extension cords come to mind. If you buy brand name stuff, it will generally be UL listed. If it doesn't have a recognizable brand name, buyer beware.

veganbikes

No flying off the handle, I was pretty relaxed when I wrote that post. If you read you would see "another hurdle to jump through..." and knowing how that person has acted in this thread we know what their opinion is and we know why they posted it.

Smaug1

It's not mandatory on ANYTHING, that I know of, as there are other NRTL competitors.
In the USA, anything that plugs into line voltage needs to be Listed, whether it be by ETL, CSA, UL, SGS or the like. (all NRTLs - Nationally Recognized Test Labs)
UL does the best job in my experience, but in some product categories, it is almost impossible to find UL Listing these days, as the customers want the cheapest way to the market; they generally don't see the value in a better job of certification, they just don't want to pay more or wait longer. They see it as a last hurdle to be able to sell the products.

So it's true that they don't have to be UL Listed, but they do have to be Listed by someone.

Battery products have gotten by the need for certification in the past, since they are generally not of high enough voltage to present a shock hazard. Now that they're starting fires with misuse and sloppy charging and modifications, the government is reminded that fire hazards can be as bad as shock hazards. Instead of one person getting hurt or killed, fire can burn a building down and kill MANY.

ScottCommutes

I said "consumer products" because I expect (don't know for certain) that electrical codes require UL listing for stuff that hard wires into the building like outlets and breakers.

Also worth pointing out that OSHA and other applications (health care, military) require listed extension cords - you can't import a cheap one from overseas or make up your own.

LeeG

Agreed. I’ve been in a burning building. It’s no fun.

Dudelsack 

So, micturition competition aside…

I own a Lectric Xpedition. The charger is Chinese. It’s a 2A charger. I know not to try to use a souped up replacement.

I have dual batteries. I charge only one at a time. I have a timer thingy that shuts off power to the charger after 6 hours.

Should I be worried about torching the place?

FBinNY 

You should always be worried, it's just a question of degree.

The first consideration is whether the battery and charger meet UL or other recognized standards. If so, there should be markings. Also sourcing is important. If this was bought through channels within the USA, there are layers of quality control that are good indicators. However if this was bought retail directly from overseas, you have NO way of knowing the source and/or the quality. Moreover, you will have no recourse should there be an issue.

The rest boils down to good practice. I'm fairly casual about charging my laptop, cell phone and other small battery devices, but also own things with larger Li-ion batteries, (all well known brands) and charge them only in the kitchen, (no garage) and only when I'm there (no overnight charging). Hopefully, should something go wrong, I'll be able to chuck the battery out the window quickly enough.

FWIW - i used to own a cell phone that got pretty warm when charging. I called the maker asking whether this was normal, and got a very nice upgrade for trivially cheap.
If I made E-bikes I'd apply a spot of temperature indicating paint, that would permanently change color if an set temperature was reached. as in WARNING if this spot is brown, discontinue using and call xxx-xxx-xxxx for service.