Lenkearney

I ride solo most times- but every once in a while a couple guys come up on me and I will try to draft them - usually I am too slow- but on occasion i find a group I can stay with.

At least on the flats, I can maintain and even take a turn at the lead. But what are you supposed to do (in lead) on the hills?

On a down hill, do you ease up and maintain the same speed as on the flats? or do you pick up the pace?

On a long (or steep) uphill- I am slow- i would drop most pace lines on an uphill as they wold sail past me- but what is expected of the leader on an uphill?

THanks, Len

StanSeven

The simplist answer is maintain the same effort. So downhills you go faster and on up hills you slow. If you're new to a group let them know and tell them you will like their feedback. If you're in the lead the person behind can tell you to slow down or speed up.

Also watch and listen to what goes on between riders before you get to the front.

Most people are glad to let new people sit in on their lines and watch. Just tell them you're new to pacelinimg and want to learn.

texaspandj

Some groups can be a little tough on newbies so be careful. Let them know you're new to riding in a pack and ask them what group you should ride with.
Just like anywhere else some cyclist can be jerks and some are cool.

big john

I don't like to ride near people I don't know and trust. If you're going to do that, make sure they know you are learning and watch them carefully to see which ones are dangerous.

MinnMan

StanSeven has it right - maintain constant effort - at least for modest hills. That means slower on the climbs and faster on the descents.

On steep, very fast descents, the pace line will likely break up temporarily, as more space between bikes is needed to be safe. Similarly, on steep, very slow climbs, the pace line will break up as people have different climbing abilities. Regrouping at the top is normal.

Pulling a pace line well takes some experience. When the person in front of you moves over to end his or her turn and your turn begins, the first tendency may be to increase effort, but if you don't do that right, you end up opening up a gap behind you. It does take more effort to pull than to ride behind the puller, but gently increase your effort until you are going about the same speed as the previous pull. Then maintain.

Also, it's not always possible, but it's more polite to end your pull at the top of a climb than at its base.

NYMXer

When pulling, always pedal because when you coast, the people behind you need to use their brakes. Most pace lines will break apart on steeper climbs and descents and regroup when safe to do so. Steer around obstacles well in advance so others have time to follow your line.

Call out unsafe obstacles like holes, cars, gravel, glass, sticks, dogs, walkers, etc. Don't surge, call out when the passing line is clear of your front wheel and always keep a tight pace line. Even if you are too tired to take a turn up front, pass through and pull off right away so the others behind you keep a tight line going.

jppe

The key is to maintain an effort you can sustain. I see newbies go too hard when moving to the front and then they are unable to drop back in after getting off the front. Also realize the person pulling has been working harder than those drafting so make sure they're able to grab a wheel and stay with the group before accelerating too much. Another key is to simply maintain the groups pace.

Artmo 

Hear, hear!

MinnMan

There is nothing more frustrating and embarrassing than getting dropped after finishing your pull. The other day I saw that happen to a guy who is actually quite experienced - I don't know what he was thinking. Getting back on after a pull shouldn't be hard, if you don't pull to the point where you are maxed out. If you find yourself drifting towards Z5, get off the front! Unless you really are much stronger than the rest of your group, trying to be a hero on the front is counterproductive.

Speedskater

When with riders that are stronger than you, try not to do the pulling when approaching or going uphill.

BlazingPedals

Always get permission before joining a group. Some groups are there for serious training and don't want to conduct a workshop for a stranger with unknown skills. The jerks are the ones who don't get permission, not the ones who don't want to a stranger in their group. Someone who doesn't follow the rules is a danger to everyone in the group.

In a group, predictability means survival. That means you hold your line, maintain constant effort (except that the effort is a bit more at the front) and call out all obstacles that everyone in the group might not be able to see. That's all best learned at lower speeds, at a more recreational pace, not when you're going balls-out just trying to keep up.

OldsCOOL

Pacelines can be a blast.

This thread reminds me of the long running and hilarious thread on the roadie forum:
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycli...-yell-you.html

Lenkearney

huh?

MinnMan

Oh, sorry - HR zone 5. If you don't wear a heart right monitor, then substitute simply an effort level that you know you can't sustain for a long period of time. My point was to finish your pull *before* that feeling comes on.

Carbonfiberboy 

No folks, you don't maintain a constant effort. You go hard on the hills and take it much easier on the flats.

When you're riding with folks you aren't real familiar with and you're leading, you come into the hill at a steady pace, then start working your way down through the gears while increasing your pedal effort. You hopefully have some idea of your limits. Ride strong, but don't exceed them. Don't worry if people go around you. Try to follow them, but don't stress over it. OTOH if they don't pass you, keep an eye on them in your mirror. If they start to drop off, reduce your pace until they don't. You should all get a feel for what the other riders can take and each match your effort to that of the others. You want to try to build a cohesive group. That's the sort of person others like to ride with.

On the flat, when you hit the front, hold your speed and cadence. Peel off before you get tired. Doesn't matter how long your pull is compared to those of others. It only matters that you pull steady and not too long for you. Very important not to increase the pace! That can be tempting sometimes, but don't be that guy.

As you go over the top of a hill, don't accelerate like you would solo. Hold back a little until the back of the line has cleared the top.

StanSeven

Right. Plus if the group is riding that hard, pulls shouldn't be that long

rm -rf

I mostly ride with groups that don't do formal pacelining with everyone rotating through. Instead, the stronger riders tend to stay toward the front (but occasionally drop to the back to recover at times.) The group speeds are fast enough that most riders do need to stay in the draft to keep up.

It's interesting that even on more casual paced, "conversational" rides, almost every rider goes much harder on the climbs, and then they regroup at the top.

I have trouble pulling correctly with smaller rolling hills. It's hard for me to gauge the correct power increase on these small climbs. Flats are easy, just look at the mph.


A few comments on non-paceline, drafting group rides. Some of these points have been mentioned above, too.

1. If you are in front, pedal on the downhill. Otherwise everyone behind has to brake.

2. It's okay to stay near the back, and let riders that are coming off the front slot in front of you. The group doesn't care if you don't pull, and would rather keep the pace steady.

3. Avoid repeated pedaling and coasting. Some riders do this all the time--a few pedal strokes, then a few seconds coast. Or they pedal a little too hard, close up the gap to the rider in front, then coast to back off. This is really disruptive to following riders. (Sometimes, I make a game of it, leaving a bigger gap to the unsteady rider, with a goal of not changing my pace at all, letting the gap increase and decrease instead.)

Even the sound of coasting makes me have to pay attention to the rider in front. Are they starting to brake? Is there something wrong?

I don't like soft pedaling with no resistance, it's not that easy to do. So I tend to shift 2 or 3 cogs to a harder gear, and pedal very easy at a low cadence instead of coasting.

4. When pulling, look way down the road, and smoothly, slowly move over to avoid potholes and other debris. With a dozen or more riders, it takes many seconds for every rider to follow the one in front, so start moving over way in advance. Don't clear the hole by inches, give it a wide margin. The riders in back won't see it in time.

And don't ride the edge of the road. Move farther in, so following riders can get a good draft.

5. Try not to swerve if a pothole wasn't called out in time. I'll get off the saddle, and ride through the hole in a straight line, instead of potentially cutting off an overlapping rider behind. (Try not to overlap wheels with the rider in front!)

mrodgers

We don't ride road bikes and when we get together, it's riding a rail trail. We also ride only about 14 mph on our hybrids while we socialize for 60 miles. My buddy's wife always has to get in front of the group. Inevitably we will end up in a line. It's so funny because she'll yell back, "I see you all drafting me!"

Drafting what? She's 5'2" and 120 lb if that. Usually behind her is 6'4" and about 240 lb I'd guess. How much of a draft is he catching? LOL.

Now the rest of us behind 6 foot plus, yeah, we're definitely drafting him.

FL_MarkD

rm -rf nailed it. you can ride with my group anytime

1989Pre 

It's best to get to know the people you'll be riding with, even if it is just a 15-minute chat before the ride. See how flexible/rigid they are on certain established principles of paceline riding. It really depends on how disciplined the group wants to be.

BikeArkansas

I have always found the faster the group the more strict the pace line rules are followed. Descending will normally mean some gaps so that a rider can brake for a curve if necessary. Any braking with someone's wheel 8" off yours is bad, so allow a number of feet on descents. On longer climbs there will quite often be someone or a small group at the front that descides to leave it in the big ring. (Leave it in the big ring is sometimes actual, but often that term simply means they are attacking the climb). If you want to stay with them you need to stay aware of that type movement and react to it quickly to avoid a gap that cannot be made up.

Part of the reason for this post is to illustrate the maze of thinking going on during a faster pace line ride. A rider very simply cannot "day dream" at all without possibly causing a danger to the group. During a "conversational" group ride it is just that. A time to visit and enjoy some easy pedaling. Any gap can be made up in a few flicks of the pedal. In a fast pace line every moment counts and every movement counts.

andr0id

This is very good advice.

However, if you are very slow going up hills, then it is polite to not be on the front and have everyone log jam behind you as you come to a crawl though.

When you're taking turns, match the same speed as the people you are with. The correct thing is for the rider on the front to stop pedaling and fall back, you should not have to make an effort and increase speed to move forward in the line.

And all good stuff from rm -rf.

dbg

+1
And I don't think it's appropriate to join a pace line unless invited. Unknowns in a paceline is a bad thing. Mistakes from inexperienced riders can cause big crashes.

Carbonfiberboy 

Good grief. Doesn't anyone here ride bicycles? Yes, if you hold your effort steady you'll come to a crawl and everyone you've been riding with on the flat will pass you. By the top of the hill they won't be in sight. Your very short experience with group riding has just come to an end.

Because power needed to maintain a speed on the flat increases with the cube of the speed, it's smart to not expend energy foolishly on the flat. OTOH, that function of speed and power does not hold true because if you're not an elite, wind resistance is not a factor when climbing. Instead feet per minute climbed is directly proportional to power. Thus your average speed for a ride will be vastly increased if you go hard on the hills and moderate on the flats. On rides of up to about a century, it's normal for well-conditioned riders to climb near lactate threshold and hold zone 2 on the flats. On shorter rides, it's normal to climb at over lactate threshold. On very long rides, it's faster overall not to pedal on descents. Cycling is all about riding hills and thus saving your energy for them. That goes against people's natural instinct not to work hard, but that's how it is.

I remember very well my first group ride, about 20 years ago. It was a club ride, a double metric century but with only about 5000' of climbing. My solo riding practice had been to hold a steady low zone 3 all the time. I started out with a small group and was so frustrated with how slow they went on the flats and then how fast they climbed! It was all I could do to stay with them on the climbs.

So I said the heck with it, dropped off, and went back to my usual Z3. I passed them by a little bit on the flat, but then they vanished into the distance on the first climb and I was not able to get back to them. We took a short break at 35 miles. They had obviously gotten there a good bit before me. After that break, I just rode with them and tried to learn from them. I still ride with those same people. Everything I know about being on the bike, I learned on group rides.

Yes, I cramped pretty good on that 125 mile ride because I wasn't used to climbing with intensity. I had a hard time finishing, but I'd learned several good lessons.

pdlamb

Would it be fair to say the leader climbs with the same intensity as (s)he rides on the flats, and everybody else ups their intensity to match speed?