juvela

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presently listed upon the waves of ebay gaulique -

​​​​​​https://www.ebay.fr/itm/385689878564...Bk9SR4jml56sYg


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Velo Mule

Thanks for posting that @juvela . from the photos I can see that the spoke threads are rolled rather than cut. Nice kit.

I don't do enough wheel building to justify such a purchase but it sure is interesting.

Chombi1 

I wonder why some old tools end up looking like they were fished out from a muddy swamp like this one.......
Did the owner just did not take appropriate care of their tools back then??

wschruba

The 'patina' on that tool is very similar to what the Eldi/Var tools from that period just...look like. The paint has worn off some surfaces, and the castings were sand (rough finished) wherever they did not need to be machined. Emphasis on the need part. Expect many molding lines to be evident.

Hozan is a similar contemporary. Several tools they make are chrome plated, but the finish is rough...and so is the chrome. They look crappy after several years of service, simply because you cannot really effectively clean rough surfaces on a daily basis (do you have any soft-touch screwdrivers?). A dousing in the parts cleaner usually restores them fairly well.

Eldi was absorbed into various other manufacturers in the 80s (?), so remember that anything you see now, wasn't even state-of-the-art then. There are several chain breakers in the basement of a shop I've worked in from VAR/ELDI, and they are simply crude affairs, compared to even cheap modern tools. That threading (rolling) tool would be a pattern that Cyclo and Hozan copied/refined...and the modern versions still don't look that much better.

GrayJay

In photo #2, sort of looks like the bottom thread roller die is worn out?

scarlson 

It's shipping from Maine, USA. It's an ok price for a spoke threader. Funny to find it on French ebay!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/385689878564

The damage to watch out for is flat spots in the rollers. Can happen if not enough oil is used and the rollers fail to roll on their pivots. Unfortunately not visible in the auction pics. You'd need to spin the rollers with your hand to see all surfaces in order to verify that they are good.

I bought just the rolling head at one point, and did about 24 spokes with just the head, but then I machined a jig with a crank and all, kind of just for fun and because I had two wheels worth of vintage single-butted tandem spokes to do.


My design for the spoke holder is probably less robust than the Eldi, but it was fun to machine that slot. The brass bolt is custom turned for the job. Over-engineered. I was young, and covid hadn't happened yet to cause me to question my mortality superfluous machining habits.

bulgie 

To avoid repetitve-strain injury when doing a whole wheel's worth, take the crank off and chuck it in a variable-speed-reversible drill. The current breed of battery-powered drills with an adjustable-torque clutch are perfect for this. You can run it all the way in until the drill chuck hits a hard stop, whereupon the clutch slips. Set the clutch as soft as you can while still providing enough torque for threading.

Then also make yourself a way to clamp each spoke in the same position lengthwise. A closed-end cup of some sort like a thimble is one way to set the stick-out. That way every spoke is threaded to the same point, helpful while building the wheel. (In the first round of tightening, before any tension starts to be applied, I tighten each nipple to the same point on the thread, visually, which only works if they're all threaded the same amount.)

With this method, doing a wheel's worth or more is actually do-able, not a slog through hell.



Been a while since I did it, but I think I was able to click the drill's speed to the High range, then threading it on and back off is about as fast as you can say "zip-zip".

Hozan is Japanese made, high quality, still made I believe, spares are available.

Mark B

scarlson 

I think I used beer to get through the two wheels I did...

I'm also deathly afraid of creating a flat spot on the rollers of mine. Not sure if this fear is founded, but I like to keep it dripping with oil and I like to have the feel of the hand crank, in case I need to loosen the tension on the rolling head. I am also using this to work with vintage swaged spokes to make period-correct wheels, so I think diameter tolerances and roundness might be more variable.

bulgie 

Fair enough — mine is the "git 'er done!" method.
I have always assumed (with no evidence!) that the rollers are made of harder metal than spokes, and the spoke threads will be the weak link if something's going to fail. No?

wschruba

I've threaded many hundreds of spokes using a Hozan/Cyclus-type roller. I've found that the sweet spot is a drop of oil down the 'valley' between two rollers on a loaded spoke every ~3 spokes. Going longer than 1 drop/3 spokes, you start feeling the binding of the rollers forming on the spoke. Shorter than 1:3, and you wind up with a huge mess on your hands. Setting the head clearance should be done to match your spoke nipples (just on the side of smoothly threading on), then leave it alone.

I've used the power drill method a few times...it doesn't meaningfully cut down production time, IMO. A spoke should take ~10 seconds between loading/unloading. The drill doesn't really cut the time down much, but it does cut down the repetitive stress. Cutting the spokes to size beforehand takes longer, in my experience; futz with a spoke on the ruler, mark it, use shear cutters, then duplicate its mates against it. A shear cutter obviates the need to prep the cut end of the spoke, and is instead sucked into the dies on the rolling head. At any rate, I'll only cut/roll a wheel's worth of spokes if there's no other choice. Anything else is a frivolity.

scarlson 

Anxiety of ruining my rolling head has informed my assumption (also with no evidence) that in the absence or paucity of lubricant, the rollers will begin bind on their axles, because the roller axles comprise a larger area than the spoke-roller contact. As with any system of bearings, the smaller pivot will be the one with the less friction. I further assumed that we can cheat this law of bearings with oil, because the pressure between spoke and roller is high enough to break the oil film while the pressure between the roller and its axle is lower because the area is larger. Anxiety further develops this theory: as friction wears away a notch in the roller, I assume it would become more prone to sticking in that spot, it being the "low spot". This would present a vicious cycle, reinforcing the wear in that one spot over time as further transgressions were made regarding lubricant. In my mind, this would happen anyway!!

repechage

I want to know if the Eldi spoke threader is for Robergel spokes. I see some size stampings but not sure the convention.

scarlson 

Robergel spokes with the super fine 0.2mm pitch thread? Seems like that would be pretty hard to find. The standard for most bicycle spoke sizes is the 56tpi or 0.45mm pitch. That 2 stamped on the rolling head could mean 2mm (14ga). But the rest of the stampings I have no idea about.

Andy_K 

I don't have much to contribute here except to say I think the French cookie options are kind of amusing. They seem almost like an American trying to speak typically bad (for an American) pidgin French.



(Speaking loudly and slowly as if that will help): "I ... don't ... accept-ee-ay"

I'm sure this is an artifact of the historic mixing of French into English, but it gave me a chuckle.