Is crashing the only way to learn how far over you can lean a bike?
03-26-07, 09:56 PM
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Is crashing the only way to learn how far over you can lean a bike?
I ride in the canyons and mountain roads and there are these crazy (to me) riders that will pass me during a corner at amazing speeds. I'm braking and trying to slow things down as I descend the steep grade and these guys are charging right through. How do you develop confidence like that? They're leaning over like they're turning the key on their car ignition switch - something done thousands of time - and I'm watching them in amazement.
I'm almost considering getting a cheap bike and some mountain bike armor and trying to see how far over I can lean over in some parking lot before finally losing traction. I have a hangup, and that's not knowing how far I can lean the bike. It's almost like my body won't let .....kinda like trying to fall flat on your face w/o bracing yourself with your arms. But I think if I have the experience of pushing it to the limit and then some I will have confidence to be a little more aggressive. What do you think of my crazy idea?
I'm almost considering getting a cheap bike and some mountain bike armor and trying to see how far over I can lean over in some parking lot before finally losing traction. I have a hangup, and that's not knowing how far I can lean the bike. It's almost like my body won't let .....kinda like trying to fall flat on your face w/o bracing yourself with your arms. But I think if I have the experience of pushing it to the limit and then some I will have confidence to be a little more aggressive. What do you think of my crazy idea?
03-26-07, 10:09 PM
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First, learn about countersteering and where and when to move forward or to the rear of the saddle. These basic skills will lead to high speed descents.
03-26-07, 10:09 PM
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Best way is to wear protective clothing; elbow & knee pads, full-finger gloves, etc. Go out to a secure spot with little traffic and do laps. Parking-lots are great, do square loops, figure-8s, etc. Practice "the line", which is the straightest, fastest line through any corner. Once you get the line down and can carve it repeatly with being off by only inches, start picking up the speed.
I 2nd the countersteering practice. Do the laps with only one hand on teh bars and you'll be able to get the correct movements. What happens to a lot of people is they don't have countersteering down as 2nd nature and end up pushing and pulling in contradictory patterns and end up going straight off a corner.
At the limit of traction, the steering gets lighter, kinda vague. The tyres will slide graudally. This is a very subtle sensation and you MUST have senstive hands and ass to feel it. That's what the practice is for. If you increase the speed by 0.1mph each lap, you may catch this ultimate-grip behavior and feel. if you increase sped by 0.25mph each lap, you'll have skipped over the limit completely and will go down without knowning why. So practice, practice, practice....
At first, practice cornering with keeping your body inline with the bike (leaned to same angle). Then practice leaning the bike more while keeping the body upright. Then practice leaning the body more while keeping the bike upright. These three cornering styles have different behaviors for the turn-in transient response as well as the steady-state cornering state. Each have their pros and cons and you should be proficient in all three and know which technique would best be used for any given corner.
I 2nd the countersteering practice. Do the laps with only one hand on teh bars and you'll be able to get the correct movements. What happens to a lot of people is they don't have countersteering down as 2nd nature and end up pushing and pulling in contradictory patterns and end up going straight off a corner.
At the limit of traction, the steering gets lighter, kinda vague. The tyres will slide graudally. This is a very subtle sensation and you MUST have senstive hands and ass to feel it. That's what the practice is for. If you increase the speed by 0.1mph each lap, you may catch this ultimate-grip behavior and feel. if you increase sped by 0.25mph each lap, you'll have skipped over the limit completely and will go down without knowning why. So practice, practice, practice....
At first, practice cornering with keeping your body inline with the bike (leaned to same angle). Then practice leaning the bike more while keeping the body upright. Then practice leaning the body more while keeping the bike upright. These three cornering styles have different behaviors for the turn-in transient response as well as the steady-state cornering state. Each have their pros and cons and you should be proficient in all three and know which technique would best be used for any given corner.
03-26-07, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by p00p
I want to get better. It looks like a lot of fun going through curves at almost 50mph.
03-26-07, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
Best way is to wear protective clothing; elbow & knee pads, full-finger gloves, etc. Go out to a secure spot with little traffic and do laps. Parking-lots are great, do square loops, figure-8s, etc. Practice "the line", which is the straightest, fastest line through any corner. Once you get the line down and can carve it repeatly with being off by only inches, start picking up the speed.
I 2nd the countersteering practice. Do the laps with only one hand on teh bars and you'll be able to get the correct movements. What happens to a lot of people is they don't have countersteering down as 2nd nature and end up pushing and pulling in contradictory patterns and end up going straight off a corner.
At the limit of traction, the steering gets lighter, kinda vague. The tyres will slide graudally. This is a very subtle sensation and you MUST have senstive hands and ass to feel it. That's what the practice is for. If you increase the speed by 0.1mph each lap, you may catch this ultimate-grip behavior and feel. if you increase sped by 0.25mph each lap, you'll have skipped over the limit completely and will go down without knowning why. So practice, practice, practice....
At first, practice cornering with keeping your body inline with the bike (leaned to same angle). Then practice leaning the bike more while keeping the body upright. Then practice leaning the body more while keeping the bike upright. These three cornering styles have different behaviors for the turn-in transient response as well as the steady-state cornering state. Each have their pros and cons and you should be proficient in all three and know which technique would best be used for any given corner.
I 2nd the countersteering practice. Do the laps with only one hand on teh bars and you'll be able to get the correct movements. What happens to a lot of people is they don't have countersteering down as 2nd nature and end up pushing and pulling in contradictory patterns and end up going straight off a corner.
At the limit of traction, the steering gets lighter, kinda vague. The tyres will slide graudally. This is a very subtle sensation and you MUST have senstive hands and ass to feel it. That's what the practice is for. If you increase the speed by 0.1mph each lap, you may catch this ultimate-grip behavior and feel. if you increase sped by 0.25mph each lap, you'll have skipped over the limit completely and will go down without knowning why. So practice, practice, practice....
At first, practice cornering with keeping your body inline with the bike (leaned to same angle). Then practice leaning the bike more while keeping the body upright. Then practice leaning the body more while keeping the bike upright. These three cornering styles have different behaviors for the turn-in transient response as well as the steady-state cornering state. Each have their pros and cons and you should be proficient in all three and know which technique would best be used for any given corner.
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03-26-07, 10:15 PM
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A couple of other pointers that some experienced cyclists shared with me along the way:
- Being on the brakes will make your bike want to go straight - if you are on the brakes hard when starting to turn and feel like you won't make the turn, ease off the brakes and you usually will make it
- run your front tire 5 - 10 psi lower than your rear tire - the front tire needs to be able to absorb all those small bumps and stuff while staying in contact with the road
JB
- Being on the brakes will make your bike want to go straight - if you are on the brakes hard when starting to turn and feel like you won't make the turn, ease off the brakes and you usually will make it
- run your front tire 5 - 10 psi lower than your rear tire - the front tire needs to be able to absorb all those small bumps and stuff while staying in contact with the road
JB
03-26-07, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jonathanb715
- run your front tire 5 - 10 psi lower than your rear tire - the front tire needs to be able to absorb all those small bumps and stuff while staying in contact with the road
JB
03-26-07, 10:55 PM
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Slow down time by looking farther ahead
I'm one of those people who glide casually and confidently through fast downhill corners. I'm not a great rider overall (by any means), but I can sail serenely through hot corners where much faster riders tense up and have to brake. I credit it to the years I've spent motorcycling, where cornering is obviously a big part of what you've got to master.
Some tips, most of which I encountered first in motorcycling books and discussions, but all of which are as true or even more so in road bicycling.
First, look as far into the corner as possible. I mean way, way ahead. When you get nervous, the obvious temptation is to lock your eyes 3 feet ahead of your front wheel. Instead, force your gaze ahead. Your peripheral vision will still give you all the information you need about the immediatly upcoming road surface. Looking way ahead is like magic. All of a sudden things are happening in slow motion, you feel confident with plenty of time to react to anything that happens, your upper body loosens up, and you just glide smoothly through. No big thing.
Another big thing is to brake early, you need to have substantially all of your big braking done before you get into the meat of the turn. Physics says that your tire and the road have only so much friction force available, and they don't care which direction that force is pointed. If you're braking, that friction force is pointing backward; if you're turning, the friction force is pointing sideways; if you're trying to do both at once, the sum (actually vector) total is likely to exceed the total amount available, and then you're sliding. So brake early, release the brakes, lean it hard over, glide easily through the corner, and then pedal briskly out.
In practice I'll often "trail" my rear brake into the turn just a little, just dragging it slightly along the rim in the turn but before I'm maximally leaned over. This gives me a little bit of fine control and lets me brake just as little as possible, which is good for maximum speed. The major principle, though, is that braking and turning both come out of the same finite amount of available friction, so do one (brake), then the other (turn), but don't try to do a lot of both at the same time.
Remember, you will generally run out of nerve long before you run out of sticky. The overwhelming majority of people when they crash run wide off the outside of the corner; very few (unless they hit something) exceed the friction limit and slide out. Simply put, most people who crash have simply failed or refused to turn as hard as they easily could have. Have faith; you can turn just a little bit harder than you are; go ahead, you'll be fine. Think about it, those other people are going through the same turns much faster than you are, with tires that are not that much different. They can do it; you can too.
Finally, you are right in that there is no substitute for doing it thousands and thousands of times. So go do it thousands and thousands of times. Just try in a casual and relaxed way to push it down just a gnat's whisker more every time. If you're like by far the majority of even very good riders, you've got a long way to go before you'll be sliding out through lack of grip. (This does not apply so much when gravel, sand, oil, or even rough pavement are in the mix, so use your brain about this. Respect the limits of grip, but don't let that respect paralyze you.)
Some tips, most of which I encountered first in motorcycling books and discussions, but all of which are as true or even more so in road bicycling.
First, look as far into the corner as possible. I mean way, way ahead. When you get nervous, the obvious temptation is to lock your eyes 3 feet ahead of your front wheel. Instead, force your gaze ahead. Your peripheral vision will still give you all the information you need about the immediatly upcoming road surface. Looking way ahead is like magic. All of a sudden things are happening in slow motion, you feel confident with plenty of time to react to anything that happens, your upper body loosens up, and you just glide smoothly through. No big thing.
Another big thing is to brake early, you need to have substantially all of your big braking done before you get into the meat of the turn. Physics says that your tire and the road have only so much friction force available, and they don't care which direction that force is pointed. If you're braking, that friction force is pointing backward; if you're turning, the friction force is pointing sideways; if you're trying to do both at once, the sum (actually vector) total is likely to exceed the total amount available, and then you're sliding. So brake early, release the brakes, lean it hard over, glide easily through the corner, and then pedal briskly out.
In practice I'll often "trail" my rear brake into the turn just a little, just dragging it slightly along the rim in the turn but before I'm maximally leaned over. This gives me a little bit of fine control and lets me brake just as little as possible, which is good for maximum speed. The major principle, though, is that braking and turning both come out of the same finite amount of available friction, so do one (brake), then the other (turn), but don't try to do a lot of both at the same time.
Remember, you will generally run out of nerve long before you run out of sticky. The overwhelming majority of people when they crash run wide off the outside of the corner; very few (unless they hit something) exceed the friction limit and slide out. Simply put, most people who crash have simply failed or refused to turn as hard as they easily could have. Have faith; you can turn just a little bit harder than you are; go ahead, you'll be fine. Think about it, those other people are going through the same turns much faster than you are, with tires that are not that much different. They can do it; you can too.
Finally, you are right in that there is no substitute for doing it thousands and thousands of times. So go do it thousands and thousands of times. Just try in a casual and relaxed way to push it down just a gnat's whisker more every time. If you're like by far the majority of even very good riders, you've got a long way to go before you'll be sliding out through lack of grip. (This does not apply so much when gravel, sand, oil, or even rough pavement are in the mix, so use your brain about this. Respect the limits of grip, but don't let that respect paralyze you.)
03-26-07, 10:55 PM
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I've already tried crashing; it does not work. I hit my head so hard so I do not remember the crash, and I cannot tell how I leaned, or what I was doing wrong. The only thing left is fear of descending. I'm climbing almost as fast as I'm going downhill now.
Last edited by CTAC; 03-26-07 at 11:03 PM.
03-26-07, 11:04 PM
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Don't forget to make sure the crank is down on the outside of the turn _and_ you press your weight into that pedal. That effectively lowers your center of gravity and increases traction as you lean over to the inside of the turn.
03-26-07, 11:32 PM
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This thread already has my heart rate up. 
I developed an inability to corner through more than one slide-out / crash while leaning, particularly during wet conditions. I used to just power straight through, but now I'm hesitant. Every time I think of my previous crashes I tense and can't go as fast as I should.
Can't help that I fell and bruised my hip in a low-ish speed cornering manuever on wet tile in the rain last weekend. Ugh.
I developed an inability to corner through more than one slide-out / crash while leaning, particularly during wet conditions. I used to just power straight through, but now I'm hesitant. Every time I think of my previous crashes I tense and can't go as fast as I should.
Can't help that I fell and bruised my hip in a low-ish speed cornering manuever on wet tile in the rain last weekend. Ugh.
03-26-07, 11:38 PM
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Crashing made me worse. I used to decend like the wind, but a long sliding skin losing pavement scraping big boom crash DIDN'T make me better. It made me worry more. And I'm having trouble geeting it back.
03-27-07, 12:08 AM
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I have been working on the same issues for a while, and all I can think of is to do literally hundreds of hill repeats on the same hill. The idea to use a parking lot is wasted on me... I can corner at a decent speed on level ground, but when going down a 6% hill I just get freaked and slow down to 20mph...
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03-27-07, 12:23 AM
#18
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Originally Posted by cccorlew
Crashing made me worse. I used to decend like the wind, but a long sliding skin losing pavement scraping big boom crash DIDN'T make me better. It made me worry more. And I'm having trouble geeting it back.
03-27-07, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jrennie
just remember where 50mph of momentum takes you on a mountain descent if you do wash out.
not trying to be a stick in the mud, but before you start building your training program around some of these other replies, just think about the price you're willing pay for a little bit of fun.
the contact patch on your tires MIGHT be about 1/2" at the best of times. consider the consequences of screwing up or being taken out by a few pieces of gravel or a tiny patch of dirt when cornering like that on a mountain road. will it be the guard rail that gets you or the fall after going over the guard rail? or maybe it's car coming the other direction.
there are skills classes you can attend. seriously...maybe you should start there first.
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03-27-07, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dog hair
not trying to be a stick in the mud, but before you start building your training program around some of these other replies, just think about the price you're willing pay for a little bit of fun.
the contact patch on your tires MIGHT be about 1/2" at the best of times. consider the consequences of screwing up or being taken out by a few pieces of gravel or a tiny patch of dirt when cornering like that on a mountain road. will it be the guard rail that gets you or the fall after going over the guard rail? or maybe it's car coming the other direction.
the contact patch on your tires MIGHT be about 1/2" at the best of times. consider the consequences of screwing up or being taken out by a few pieces of gravel or a tiny patch of dirt when cornering like that on a mountain road. will it be the guard rail that gets you or the fall after going over the guard rail? or maybe it's car coming the other direction.
03-27-07, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by dog hair
that's best reply so far.
not trying to be a stick in the mud, but before you start building your training program around some of these other replies, just think about the price you're willing pay for a little bit of fun.
the contact patch on your tires MIGHT be about 1/2" at the best of times. consider the consequences of screwing up or being taken out by a few pieces of gravel or a tiny patch of dirt when cornering like that on a mountain road. will it be the guard rail that gets you or the fall after going over the guard rail? or maybe it's car coming the other direction.
there are skills classes you can attend. seriously...maybe you should start there first.
not trying to be a stick in the mud, but before you start building your training program around some of these other replies, just think about the price you're willing pay for a little bit of fun.
the contact patch on your tires MIGHT be about 1/2" at the best of times. consider the consequences of screwing up or being taken out by a few pieces of gravel or a tiny patch of dirt when cornering like that on a mountain road. will it be the guard rail that gets you or the fall after going over the guard rail? or maybe it's car coming the other direction.
there are skills classes you can attend. seriously...maybe you should start there first.
Not that there are any mountains to fall off around here.
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03-27-07, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by the beef
Well.. *purses lips* there goes my confidence..
i apologize for that, but i just find it really disturbing when people try to give out high speed cornering advice on the internet without knowing whether the people reading are fully grasping the concepts. so i feel the need to point out the obvious consequences of a simple mistake at those speeds.
i've ridden motorcyles for about half my life and raced 600 supersport for several years, and i do NOT feel comfortable about teaching people how to ride over the internet.
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03-27-07, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by dog hair
i apologize for that, but i just find it really disturbing when people try to give out high speed cornering advice on the internet without knowing whether the people reading are grasping the concepts.
i've ridden motorcyles for about half my life and raced 600 supersport for several years, and i do NOT feel comfortable about teaching people how to ride over the internet.
i've ridden motorcyles for about half my life and raced 600 supersport for several years, and i do NOT feel comfortable about teaching people how to ride over the internet.
I agree, there are risks with learning descending techniques on a tremendous mountain descent. Neighborhood laps for me.
03-27-07, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by the beef
Yeah, it's cool. I was half-kidding, anyway.
I agree, there are risks with learning descending techniques on a tremendous mountain descent. Neighborhood laps for me.
I agree, there are risks with learning descending techniques on a tremendous mountain descent. Neighborhood laps for me.
the first few times i came down my favorite mountain on my bicycle, i did it trying to match my motorcycle pace. freaks me out just thinking about how dumb that is. i'll still descend fast, but i never put myself in a pucker-inducing situation anymore. i never want to have to eat tacos through a straw.
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03-27-07, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Helmet
Physics says that your tire and the road have only so much friction force available, and they don't care which direction that force is pointed. If you're braking, that friction force is pointing backward; if you're turning, the friction force is pointing sideways; if you're trying to do both at once, the sum (actually vector) total is likely to exceed the total amount available, and then you're sliding.
Maybe i'm missing something here but explain why that's at all true. It seems that you're saying that the road is providing the friction that slows you down when you apply the brakes.
If that were true i wouldn't be able stop my wheel from spinning while it's in a work stand, brake pads stop the wheel...not the road.
In no way would braking while cornering affect the friction with the road.
My guess is that when someone brakes while cornering hard, it slows them down, which makes them lean over farther because of the lessened couple produced from the rotation of the wheel, when they lean over further the tires slide out. So I guess you're right that braking while cornering will lead to sliding out, but it isn't because braking increases the overall sum of frictional forces (friction is based on material/weight, not speed)