This will turn out to be the best Lance interview on record.
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Lance is also appearing in “Stars On Mars”
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My thoughts on that:
1) I'm a big Greg fan and also lament the way that situation played out for him. So much so that I have an active thread in the valuation forum right now where I'm considering buying a Zurich. That, partially, as a show of support for Greg.
2) I worry that Greg's initial Lance criticisms may have been substantially motivated by professional jealously. I think that it may have bothered Greg to be eclipsed by another American so soon after his own accomplishments. To this day, Greg's branding is still very much "the only true American TDF champion". Which he may, in fact, be.
3) Most of what I've consumed regarding the Greg / Lance era leads me to suspect that Greg was also doping, just doping differently and less effectively than Lance based on what was available at the time. Obviously, if that's the case, then there is hypocrisy at play.
4) Once Greg had Lance backed into a corner and in self preservation mode, the outcome was predictable (at least in hind sight). Greg certainly did not deserve what happened to him. I do think that he could have avoided much of it by being more strategic however.
1) I'm a big Greg fan and also lament the way that situation played out for him. So much so that I have an active thread in the valuation forum right now where I'm considering buying a Zurich. That, partially, as a show of support for Greg.
2) I worry that Greg's initial Lance criticisms may have been substantially motivated by professional jealously. I think that it may have bothered Greg to be eclipsed by another American so soon after his own accomplishments. To this day, Greg's branding is still very much "the only true American TDF champion". Which he may, in fact, be.
3) Most of what I've consumed regarding the Greg / Lance era leads me to suspect that Greg was also doping, just doping differently and less effectively than Lance based on what was available at the time. Obviously, if that's the case, then there is hypocrisy at play.
4) Once Greg had Lance backed into a corner and in self preservation mode, the outcome was predictable (at least in hind sight). Greg certainly did not deserve what happened to him. I do think that he could have avoided much of it by being more strategic however.
First of all recombinant EPO was first available in 1989.
Greg won his second Tour in 1990 and was world champ way before then. Indurain was barely pack filler in 89-90.
In 1991, I watched TdF in person. Indurain destroyed both Lemond and Hampsten up Alpe dHuez. IIRC, Hampsten won the climber's jersey in the Tour de Suisse that year and a 90 Kg horse beats him up? If Lemond were the one doping after the advent of epo, how would he lose to a previous pack filler like Indurain?
Last edited by BillyD; 06-06-23 at 03:06 PM. Reason: FOS too much.
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#80
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a) Attia absolutely crushes it as an interviewer, especially in his being non-judgmental in a way that almost no LA interviewers ever are. And the technical bent as you mentioned.
4) I thought that the latest LA documentary, by 30 for 30 was a good complement to this podcast. The podcast prompted me to watch, listen, and read pretty much everything available on LA. I didn't track the original story so it's mostly new to me.
4) I thought that the latest LA documentary, by 30 for 30 was a good complement to this podcast. The podcast prompted me to watch, listen, and read pretty much everything available on LA. I didn't track the original story so it's mostly new to me.
I know nothing about cycling and I was transfixed by this interview
Attia indeed CRUSHES it as the interviewer.
This is a very technical interview, nothing like Oprah media fluff.
The cancer discussion was a medical class
Headache, blurry vision, and coughing up blood as a testicular cancer marker.
Orchiectomy due to seminomatous tumor vs. choreocarcinoma
The downsides of BEP bleomycin, the progression of 4 cycles of chemo.
I forgot that Lance also has brain cancer spread.
The PED discussion was a medical class
Hematocrit levels, etc.
The race discussion was a cycling history class
Giro, Tour, Vuelta, etc.
He recalls every race he rode in detail year by year, 97,98,99,00,01,etc.
Last edited by grantelmwood; 06-06-23 at 02:57 PM.
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Reminds me of the Ali era in boxing. Frazier, Holmes and Foreman ALL would have taken a turn as champion if they weren't unfortunate enough to come along during Ali's reign.
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He's really good at shilling whatever products he's pushing at the moment.
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Yeah but you're ignoring one thing: Lance and Bonds would still have dominated their fields if they were clean. These same people who weren't competitive because they did the right thing still wouldn't have been competitive enough if they had cheated. Those "untold others" still would have been untold. Canon fodder is still essentially canon fodder if you come along at the wrong time.
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Last edited by Eric F; 06-06-23 at 03:49 PM.
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The OP was being ironic. I do that sometimes just for giggles. The most fun thing about this thread so far is that those who listened to the podcast have interesting things to say, in contrast to the religious fervor and lack of content in the earlier posts.
Some things which aren't usually commented on:
Lance's amazing ability to not lose much muscle mass during GTs. His ability to recover was amazing. He had to lose 7 kilos of protein prepping for his comeback.
Some things which aren't usually commented on:
Lance's amazing ability to not lose much muscle mass during GTs. His ability to recover was amazing. He had to lose 7 kilos of protein prepping for his comeback.
Ability not that amazing with that.
#89
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I feel that it is logically irrational to assume Greg Lamond's innocence. Kind to assume his innocence?? Yes. Fair? Yes. Rational? No, based on these arguments.
1) Pretty much everything that I've read, listened to, or viewed on the history of the Tour de France suggests that it was dirty pretty much from inception until, at the least, the end of the Lance Armstrong era. This included EPO, corticosteroids, beer, plain old train hopping, and who knows what else. What are the odd that everybody before LeMond took PEDs, everybody after LeMond took PEDs, but Greg himself did not take PEDs for that brief moment in cycling history? Not great I would say.
2) One of the reasons that Lance was able to persist in his doping and lying as long as he did is because much of the world insisted upon having incontrovertible evidence of Lance's guilt before condemning him. And look how well that turned out for us? One of the important lessons of the Armstrong episode is precisely that it is irrational to presume PED innocence when the incentive structure overwhelmingly supports PED use. One of the lessons that we should take from Lance's guilt is LeMond's probable guilt. Not certain guilt, probable guilt. Those are different.
3) Attia and San Millan discuss the Indurain case in a way that I feel is salient. My takeaway from that discussion is that they, like me, suspect that:
a) Indurain used PEDs like most everyone before him.
b) No serious attempt has been made to investigate Indurain or anyone before him because would be a public relations nightmare for cycling if the result wound up jus being "Yup, it was always dirty. Cyclists are just despicable".
Since LeMond preceded Indurain, he may have gotten a pass simply based on chronology. Sometime after Indurain, but before Lance, was where the cutoff was deemed to be best placed.
It is possible that Greg LeMond was innocent. I'm not refuting that. And if he was innocent, then the presumption of his guilt by association is a travesty. That said, I don't feel that anyone -- other than Greg -- is well served by denying what is likely the truth of the situation for a lack of incontrovertible proof.
1) Pretty much everything that I've read, listened to, or viewed on the history of the Tour de France suggests that it was dirty pretty much from inception until, at the least, the end of the Lance Armstrong era. This included EPO, corticosteroids, beer, plain old train hopping, and who knows what else. What are the odd that everybody before LeMond took PEDs, everybody after LeMond took PEDs, but Greg himself did not take PEDs for that brief moment in cycling history? Not great I would say.
2) One of the reasons that Lance was able to persist in his doping and lying as long as he did is because much of the world insisted upon having incontrovertible evidence of Lance's guilt before condemning him. And look how well that turned out for us? One of the important lessons of the Armstrong episode is precisely that it is irrational to presume PED innocence when the incentive structure overwhelmingly supports PED use. One of the lessons that we should take from Lance's guilt is LeMond's probable guilt. Not certain guilt, probable guilt. Those are different.
3) Attia and San Millan discuss the Indurain case in a way that I feel is salient. My takeaway from that discussion is that they, like me, suspect that:
a) Indurain used PEDs like most everyone before him.
b) No serious attempt has been made to investigate Indurain or anyone before him because would be a public relations nightmare for cycling if the result wound up jus being "Yup, it was always dirty. Cyclists are just despicable".
Since LeMond preceded Indurain, he may have gotten a pass simply based on chronology. Sometime after Indurain, but before Lance, was where the cutoff was deemed to be best placed.
It is possible that Greg LeMond was innocent. I'm not refuting that. And if he was innocent, then the presumption of his guilt by association is a travesty. That said, I don't feel that anyone -- other than Greg -- is well served by denying what is likely the truth of the situation for a lack of incontrovertible proof.
Last edited by Harold74; 06-06-23 at 04:08 PM.
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So, not ignoring it in LA's case I'm flat out denying it.
I don't think Bonds would have broken Hank Aaron's record, btw. I think that's a damn shame because Aaron actually had routine plausible death threats on his way to that. The man had courage and class.
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Agreed. Without the additional strength/power, a LOT more balls stay in the yard.
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I feel that it is logically irrational to assume Greg Lamond's innocence. Kind to assume his innocence?? Yes. Fair? Yes. Rational? No, based on these arguments.
1) Pretty much everything that I've read, listened to, or viewed on the history of the Tour de France suggests that it was dirty pretty much from inception until, at the least, the end of the Lance Armstrong era. This included EPO, corticosteroids, beer, plain old train hopping, and who knows what else. What are the odd that everybody before LeMond took PEDs, everybody after LeMond took PEDs, but Greg himself did not take PEDs for that brief moment in cycling history? Not great I would say.
2) One of the reasons that Lance was able to persist in his doping and lying as long as he did is because much of the world insisted upon having incontrovertible evidence of Lance's guilt before condemning him. And look how well that turned out for us? One of the important lessons of the Armstrong episode is precisely that it is irrational to presume PED innocence when the incentive structure overwhelmingly supports PED use. One of the lessons that we should take from Lance's guilt is LeMond's probable guilt. Not certain guilt, probable guilt. Those are different.
3) Attia and San Millan discuss the Indurain case in a way that I feel is salient. My takeaway from that discussion is that they, like me, suspect that:
a) Indurain used PEDs like most everyone before him.
b) No serious attempt has been made to investigate Indurain or anyone before him because would be a public relations nightmare for cycling if the result wound up jus being "Yup, it was always dirty. Cyclists are just despicable".
Since LeMond preceded Indurain, he may have gotten a pass simply based on chronology. Sometime after Indurain, but before Lance, was where the cutoff was deemed to be best placed.
It is possible that Greg LeMond was innocent. I'm not refuting that. And if he was innocent, then the presumption of his guilt by association is a travesty. That said, I don't feel that anyone -- other than Greg -- is well served by denying what is likely the truth of the situation for a lack of incontrovertible truth.
1) Pretty much everything that I've read, listened to, or viewed on the history of the Tour de France suggests that it was dirty pretty much from inception until, at the least, the end of the Lance Armstrong era. This included EPO, corticosteroids, beer, plain old train hopping, and who knows what else. What are the odd that everybody before LeMond took PEDs, everybody after LeMond took PEDs, but Greg himself did not take PEDs for that brief moment in cycling history? Not great I would say.
2) One of the reasons that Lance was able to persist in his doping and lying as long as he did is because much of the world insisted upon having incontrovertible evidence of Lance's guilt before condemning him. And look how well that turned out for us? One of the important lessons of the Armstrong episode is precisely that it is irrational to presume PED innocence when the incentive structure overwhelmingly supports PED use. One of the lessons that we should take from Lance's guilt is LeMond's probable guilt. Not certain guilt, probable guilt. Those are different.
3) Attia and San Millan discuss the Indurain case in a way that I feel is salient. My takeaway from that discussion is that they, like me, suspect that:
a) Indurain used PEDs like most everyone before him.
b) No serious attempt has been made to investigate Indurain or anyone before him because would be a public relations nightmare for cycling if the result wound up jus being "Yup, it was always dirty. Cyclists are just despicable".
Since LeMond preceded Indurain, he may have gotten a pass simply based on chronology. Sometime after Indurain, but before Lance, was where the cutoff was deemed to be best placed.
It is possible that Greg LeMond was innocent. I'm not refuting that. And if he was innocent, then the presumption of his guilt by association is a travesty. That said, I don't feel that anyone -- other than Greg -- is well served by denying what is likely the truth of the situation for a lack of incontrovertible truth.
I am not assuming his " probable " guilt because there's no individualized proof of any kind. None.
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#95
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I also feel that it is important to view Lance himself as one of the victims PED use. I believe that a plausible case can be made that, in the absence of PEDs, Lance's story may well have worked out like this:
1) Still the seven time Tour de France winner.
2) Still a cancer survivor who proved that it is possible to be not just as good as you were before cancer but better.
3) Not a man with his reputation in tatters because he was put in situations that provided massive incentives for him to lie and bully.
4) Not a man who ingested potentially dangerous PEDs because he was put in situations that provided massive incentives for him to ingest them.
5) Perhaps not a man who got cancer at all if PED had anything to do with that as he himself speculates.
6) A man who, himself, is confident that he was the legitimate champion without any taint.
Yes, Lance was ruthless and that caused his initial outcome to be better than that of many other "victims". I feel that he's one of the victims of PED use none the less.
1) Still the seven time Tour de France winner.
2) Still a cancer survivor who proved that it is possible to be not just as good as you were before cancer but better.
3) Not a man with his reputation in tatters because he was put in situations that provided massive incentives for him to lie and bully.
4) Not a man who ingested potentially dangerous PEDs because he was put in situations that provided massive incentives for him to ingest them.
5) Perhaps not a man who got cancer at all if PED had anything to do with that as he himself speculates.
6) A man who, himself, is confident that he was the legitimate champion without any taint.
Yes, Lance was ruthless and that caused his initial outcome to be better than that of many other "victims". I feel that he's one of the victims of PED use none the less.
#96
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Sadly, that is very Lance-esque of you.
Individualized proof is not a valid argument against probable guilt. Probability is about aggregate trends, not individual outcomes. That was the crux of my post and precisely what facilitated Lance's debauchery for so long. Do they not flip coins and play cards where you live? I feel as though they probably do.
Last edited by Harold74; 06-06-23 at 04:15 PM.
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I also feel that it is important to view Lance himself as one of the victims PED use. I believe that a plausible case can be made that, in the absence of PEDs, Lance's story may well have worked out like this:
1) Still the seven time Tour de France winner.
2) Still a cancer survivor who proved that it is possible to be not just as good as you were before cancer but better.
3) Not a man with his reputation in tatters because he was put in situations that provided massive incentives for him to lie and bully.
4) Not a man who ingested potentially dangerous PEDs because he was put in situations that provided massive incentives for him to ingest them.
5) Perhaps not a man who got cancer at all if PED had anything to do with that as he himself speculates.
6) A man who, himself, is confident that he was the legitimate champion without any taint.
Yes, Lance was ruthless and that caused his initial outcome to be better than that of many other "victims". I feel that he's one of the victims of PED use none the less.
1) Still the seven time Tour de France winner.
2) Still a cancer survivor who proved that it is possible to be not just as good as you were before cancer but better.
3) Not a man with his reputation in tatters because he was put in situations that provided massive incentives for him to lie and bully.
4) Not a man who ingested potentially dangerous PEDs because he was put in situations that provided massive incentives for him to ingest them.
5) Perhaps not a man who got cancer at all if PED had anything to do with that as he himself speculates.
6) A man who, himself, is confident that he was the legitimate champion without any taint.
Yes, Lance was ruthless and that caused his initial outcome to be better than that of many other "victims". I feel that he's one of the victims of PED use none the less.
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#98
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I was a big Lance fan, even through the early doping, even in to the mid-career doping. It was when he started lying and threw his own team mates and friends under the bus and lied about his own use that I lost all respect for him. Then I read Tyler Hamilton's book and that was a real eye opener.
#99
Senior Member
To be very clear on a couple of things regarding LeMond:
1) I'm not suggesting that Lemond took EPO. I'm suggesting that he probably took whatever PED's were prevalent during his reign, prior to the advent of EPO in cycling. That said, I see little difference ethically.
2) I admire LeMond and in no way disdain him. Not for his criticism of Lance, not for his use of PEDs IF he used them, and not for his hypocrisy IF he did use PED's.
Like Lance, I see Greg as a product of his times and circumstances.
1) I'm not suggesting that Lemond took EPO. I'm suggesting that he probably took whatever PED's were prevalent during his reign, prior to the advent of EPO in cycling. That said, I see little difference ethically.
2) I admire LeMond and in no way disdain him. Not for his criticism of Lance, not for his use of PEDs IF he used them, and not for his hypocrisy IF he did use PED's.
Like Lance, I see Greg as a product of his times and circumstances.
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There is no evidence that Greg took performance enhancing drugs. On the contrary, his tested VO2 max as an 18 year old amateur was one of the highest ever recorded.
That this forum would allow someone to slander Greg without sanction is beyond despicable.
That this forum would allow someone to slander Greg without sanction is beyond despicable.
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