79pmooney

somebikeguy, in defense of the SunTour Power Ratchets. Yes they look a little crude. But wow! do they work well for everything 7-speed and below. I raced with a 5 speed FW and had far better shifting with that and Cyclones than anyone one their radically more expensive Italian bikes. I only sorta joke that you really should take them apart and do a clean-up and lube every decade or two but i have never done it because I had to. Never done more than tweak the friction to match the derailleurs'

ehcoplex 

If you like the feel of the Suntour power-ratchets, but want better looks try the Dia-Compe ENEs. The clamp leaves something to be desired, but the levers are nicer looking (maybe it's possible that the braze-on versions would fit the Campy clamp.....?). I think the ratcheting is actually a little nicer than the Suntour- finer 'clicks'. And I agree, about anything feels better than the Shimano 'ratcheting' in friction. I think I'd rather just have plain-ol' thumbscrew-tightened, plastic-washer friction shifters than Shimanos in friction mode..


But I'm still going to keep harping that you ought to just make the splurge and get some Simplex Retros.....

ehcoplex 

Also, take a little Mother's or Simichrome to those Suntours and they'll at least be shiny!

somebikeguy 

I had my eyes on the diacompes but the price and clamp dissuade me. I am wading thru the simplex offering to be sure my ebay trolling is going down the right ally. As we have established on this thread… folks play fast and loose with “retrofriction”. If theyre getting it wrong on velobase god knows whats happening on ebay.

mpetry912 

you have not lived till you've tried Campagnolo "Doppler" retrofrictions. they are the shiznit,

hard to find but worth the search

/markp

somebikeguy 

Want to try. See the DT boss versions but rarely the clamp on.

is the 912 in your handle a reference to the vehicle?

somebikeguy 

Is Doppler a nickname or the correct search term for the big campies?

one thing I omitted from my shimano vs suntour comparison: the shimano has more pull. Its very hard to get the cable right for the suntour to shift to the extremes. Granted I have a long cage sram 9sp mtb derailleur installed but the shimano shrugged it off.

ehcoplex 

Do the Doppler levers have a counter-spring inside them somewhere? I can't see from the above parts diagram what would provide the counter-tension to the RD spring... Unless maybe it's embedded somehow in the lever and isn't serviceable? Just curious.

Other than the extremely rare bar-end version, it's pretty easy to ID Simplex Retrofriction shifters. They've got a pretty bulbous pivot-end, and there's a tiny slot visible for the end of the clutch spring- on early models the slot is at the bottom of the lever, later models its at 12 o'clock (parallel to the lever itself).

somebikeguy 

So these guys would be Retrofrictions?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/29563531721...Bk9SR9TvueX3YQ

as would these?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/30490453904...Bk9SR9rvueX3YQ

somebikeguy 

Meant also to ask: what are the chances of finding a one sided shifter? I am running my bike 1x and in some fantasy feel like the single clamp on shifter should be cheaper as most C&V folks have a front derailleur?

ehcoplex 

Yup- those are both gen-U-ine Simplex Retrofrictions. Funny, I almost posted the link to the first one yesterday.... Don't see the later-styled ones as a clamp on too often.
I'm 98% sure that a single-sided clamp that would work with a Simplex Retro exists- I'm pretty sure I've seen some photos of '5-speed' French bikes with them. For sure there are single-sided Simplex band clamps (like this one on eBay.fr), but whether they'll work with a Retrofriction lever is another story. But now I'm curious- so I'll head down into the dungeon and see if a Retrofriction lever will fit on a Criterium band clamp....
Couple things to note though- I'm running 7sp on one bike with Retros and it uses nearly all the lever travel to get to the biggest cog. Maybe it'd make it on an 8sp, but I'm not sure. Also, Simplex derailleur cables had a smaller than now-standard end on them, and the counter-sunk hole the end fits in is correspondingly smaller. I use a dremel to grind down the diameter of the standard cable-ends a little so it fits.

ehcoplex 

Tried a Retro lever on a Crit clamp & def a no-go…
But there’s this, so they do exist…

Piff 

There is the much cheaper option of Shimano unishift. Comes in a clamp mount only. Also is 100% bonafide retrofriction.

somebikeguy 

Perhaps someone can help me understand pull to travel ratio on rear derailleurs? I test fit my 9sp cassette on the 130mm hub and found that the Suntour will not handle the range, by which I do not mean the fact that the largest cog is 27t (up 1 from the 7sp freeshweel) but that it has inadequate travel. The shimano can maaaybe handle it but really just because its possible (but not nice) to rotate it past 180 degrees. This is all with the long cage SRAM "1:1 Actuation" 9 speed MTB RD. I swapped the Nuovo Record back on and found both shifters easily handled the range, but that the pull ratio (sorry if this is the wrong term) results in twitchy shifting, meaning x degrees of rotation at the shifter produces too much movement at the RD.

There is much written about aligning RD movement to SIS/index shifting systems. What I am trying to do is figure out which RD may be a goldilocks between the NR and SRAM in terms of movement.

ehcoplex 

Can't shed useful light on the above question, but I have heard of people putting a small length of housing liner or some other tiny, flexible tubing over the derailleur cable up at the shifter to effectively increase ​​​​​​​the radius of the shifter barrel and therefore increasing the amount of cable pulled for a given rotation of the lever.

79pmooney

I don't know that derailleur but in general, MTB derailleurs use more cable travel than road derailleurs. Combos I've used that work well - Superbe friction and Cyclone or newer higher end SunTour on 9-speed cassettes, Campy Mirage RD with the same shifter. (Throw is a full 180 degrees so it is folded clear back along the DT on low gear but the shifting is close to divine, simply as good as it gets.) With 7-speed, any SunTour shifter and derailleur combo I've ever tried worked well. Power Ratchets, Symmetrics, some straight friction in the distant past.

somebikeguy 

Thanks I'll poke about for a late-ish model road derailleur to see how that reacts.

somebikeguy 

A friend gave me this 90s (?) 8 speed Dura Ace rear. I installed it with my 12-32t XTR cassette and the Sun Tour shifters and a SRAM 9 speed chain. It works BEAUTIFULLY. Even with two gnarley 4t jumps. Good stuff.

79pmooney

Cool!

ehcoplex 

Wow- the short cage can do 32t?
And…first it’s the Alfa, now what is that in the background? 911?

somebikeguy 

Yep it can! Ill get it on the road for a better test tomorrow am.

that is a needy 1965 912 back there…

tombc

I see you have some SIS shifters coming - to me this is the move. e: oops I reread the thread properly but I'll leave my post

The Suntour shifters (which I have used and abused) are from an era before die drawn, stainless cables and compassionless housing with a plastic sheath in it. To make the derailleurs of this era shift into high gear reliably, they had a heavy duty spring. To suit, the shifter is stiffer all around. Shimano introduces SIS cables, housing, derailleurs and shifters all with a lighter action. Newer brakes feel better and have a lighter spring for this reason too. I am not old enough to confirm this observation firsthand. I have been only in the shop since 2005.

My favourite combination would be a slant parallelogram Shimano derailleur and SIS downtubes switched to friction. The 6 speed Shimano 14-28 freewheel you can get for $20 shifts really well, and you only notice how ugly it is when you install it. I use a wide range 1x with a clutch now and it's nice but the shifting isn't as nice and light as I used to use.

somebikeguy 

Took her out for the first ride on my full completed tubeless conversion, using the Dura Ace RD, suntour shifters and XTR 12-32 cassette and she is SWEEEEET. Just a great feeling ride. The range on the XTR cassette is very useful for the roads I ride and the shifting is spot on. The pull-to-travel on the Dura Ace is closer to the Campy NR in that the shifter ends up about perpendicular to the downtube when on the largest cog. I gotta say I have a lot of pride rolling on wheels I built myself and cobbling all these parts together. The brakes are still a bit meh but I have some pads coming my way and eventually I’ll replace the levers and cables but for now I’ll try to load miles on before my big ride next sunday to be sure she’s read to roll.

ehcoplex 

Looking good!
And I’m with you on the wheel-pride- all my bikes now have wheels I’ve built, and it’s a good feeling!

somebikeguy 

Are these old Cinelli stems stamped somewhere with their length (reach)? I could use one a bit shorter as this frame is likely on the largeish side for me.