The First PX-10, Thoughts
09-24-23, 07:17 AM
#51
feros ferio
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These old PX10s are just what they are. Many might think the build quality looks poor, but I I think that wasn't so unusual back then, at least compared to newer bikes of the 80's. What counted most is the handling and ride of these bikes that is pretty much legendary for Peugeot.
These bikes were raced by some of the best riders of that time, successfully and were never short of the competition.
These bikes were raced by some of the best riders of that time, successfully and were never short of the competition.
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
09-24-23, 07:34 AM
#52
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Thread Starter
I am glad you mentioned Peugeot build quality, because my 1981 Bianchi put my 1980 Peugeot PKN-10 to shame in that department. However, the PKN-10 has much more generous tire clearance, which is a strong point in favor of its versatility. The only reason I gave it to my elder son is that it is one size too long in the top tube and too too tall in the seat tube for me (my size is 55cm C-T).
If my Campione was 2 cm taller, there would be no way I would ever part with it.
Last edited by PTL011; 09-24-23 at 08:26 AM.
09-24-23, 08:22 AM
#53
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I bought my PX-10 in 1970, because at $180 it was the least expensive sew-up tire bike. The owners of Sugden and Lynch Bicycles in Palo Alto probably high fived each other when I took that turkey off their hands.
It wasn't a very good bike, at least for that level of machine, although it was nicer than the Peugeot UO-8 that it replaced. I rode it for about six months, then I found out about Colnagos, and I got one. I don't even remember whom I sold the PX-10 to.
It wasn't a very good bike, at least for that level of machine, although it was nicer than the Peugeot UO-8 that it replaced. I rode it for about six months, then I found out about Colnagos, and I got one. I don't even remember whom I sold the PX-10 to.
09-24-23, 09:20 AM
#54
feros ferio
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John I see you have the Bianchi Campione D'Italia as well, not sure if yours was like mine with the Formula 2 tubing (Bianchi kinda went insane in the 80s with the naming convention) but of the many that I own now - Japanese, French, American, English, Italian, the only three that were spectacular to me...and objectively a result of the tubing/geometry, were the Centurion Ironman Master, Gitane TDF, and the Bianchi Formula 2 Campione.
If my Campione was 2 cm taller, there would be no way I would ever part with it.
If my Campione was 2 cm taller, there would be no way I would ever part with it.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
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09-24-23, 10:53 AM
#55
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In those days I was enamored of the PX-10 for the same reasons - cost/value. But least in Chicago we had stores with much more expensive higher end bikes: Raleigh Professionals, numerous Italians including Cinelli, Masi by special order, and others including Bottecchia, Galmozzi, and Pogliaghi. England was also well represented, with Mercian, Bob Jackson, Witcomb, Hetchins, and more. All a lot more costly than the Peug, and not much lighter, if lighter at all. Perhaps due to the local presence of Ochsner, some real odd stuff showed up like my Cicli Rossignoli bike, which I bought when the supply of PX-10s and Raleigh Competitions ran out. At least one shop owner travelled regularly to Italy on buying trips, bringing home what HE thought was good for the business, so we had some Fiorelli and Atala, at multiple levels. So a lot of Campy Valentino and Gran Sport were on the road.
09-24-23, 11:13 AM
#56
Senior Member
As stated by daka There are several key components that are not original on this PX-10 and in particular the wheels will make a huge difference in the feel of the bike on the road. Not having tubular tires pumped up to 100 psi (or something of equivalent feel) will undoubtedly make this bike ride sluggishly compared to how it was intended to feel.
I own a contemporaneous Gitane TdF, and with the tubulars, it feels like a race machine. With even good clincher rims and tires, it reverts to a clunker.
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09-24-23, 11:19 AM
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They were racing bikes, but Simpson and later Merckx found a way to race Peugeot painted frames from Masi.
09-24-23, 12:20 PM
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09-24-23, 12:42 PM
#59
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Straying rather from the OP but an interesting read of Tom Simpson’s own account of his 1964 Milan San Remo win…
https://lagazzettadellabici.wordpres...-san-remo-win/
Reinforces the belief that light wheels make the racing bicycle - unusual 32 front and 28 rear spokes combination. Some fairly honest gear ratios too.
Nothing though on whether this race fell during a potentially short period in which Simpson rode an actual PX-10 rather than the Carltons painted as Peugeots he reputedly started with or the Masis painted as Peugeots he later raced…!
https://lagazzettadellabici.wordpres...-san-remo-win/
Reinforces the belief that light wheels make the racing bicycle - unusual 32 front and 28 rear spokes combination. Some fairly honest gear ratios too.
Nothing though on whether this race fell during a potentially short period in which Simpson rode an actual PX-10 rather than the Carltons painted as Peugeots he reputedly started with or the Masis painted as Peugeots he later raced…!
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09-24-23, 12:58 PM
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09-24-23, 02:41 PM
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I have an '87 Bianchi Campione d'Italia. It has Cromor tubing, but is also marked as a "Formula 2 SuperSet". The story I heard is that Bianchi mixed tubing guages so that they effectively built with an SP downtube and chainstays, SL everywhere else. 1.0/0.7/1.0 instead of 0.9/0.6/0.9 tubing. I still enjoy that bike today; it's not going anywhere.
09-24-23, 09:05 PM
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I have an '87 Bianchi Campione d'Italia. It has Cromor tubing, but is also marked as a "Formula 2 SuperSet". The story I heard is that Bianchi mixed tubing guages so that they effectively built with an SP downtube and chainstays, SL everywhere else. 1.0/0.7/1.0 instead of 0.9/0.6/0.9 tubing. I still enjoy that bike today; it's not going anywhere.
09-24-23, 09:25 PM
#63
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Get some nice or period correct 700c and the some Veloflex Corsa Race 25 mm, and some Schwalbe Aerothan tubes, those panaracers are real duds.
09-24-23, 10:05 PM
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I think mine is '87 too. What you wrote is fascinating, are you sure about this? Bianchigirll Any info on this? Thanks!
Supertset tubing was introduced by Bianchi for the 1984 model year. The first of the Japanese Supesets came from Ishiwata and later from Tange. Bianchi didn't mix Tange and Ishiwata product to make Supersets. They just utilized a heavier gauge tubeset from the same manufacturer (i.e. Ishiwata 022 with 024 chainstays and downtube). The move to the Superset configuration was prompted by the desire of a stiffer bottom bracket, which was one of the big topics for designers in the mid-1980s.
The trick of using heavier gauge down tubes and chainstays to stiffen the bottom bracket had long been employed by small volume framebuilders but things hit the mainstream in 1983 when Reynolds introduced 531C, which utilized a heavier gauge down tube. Columbus offered their solution in 1984 with SLX and SPX, which had helical ridges inside the bottom bracket end of the down tube, seat tube and chainstays. Miyata responded in 1985 with with triple buttled tubing that had heavier butts at the bottom bracket end of the seat and down tubes. Ishiwata went one step further with quad butted tubing in 1985.
Bianchi introduced Superset II as a refinement of Superset. The oversize downtube further increased stiffness, as did the oval bottom bracket end of the downtube with the lateral orientation of the major axis. Both tricks had previously been employed by ATB manufacturers and Masi had introduced the Volumetrica with it's oversized tubes in 1984.
Edit: I forgot to mention that the use of Ishiwata or Tange in the Supersets for a given year was probably as simple as which tubing manufacturing offered the best pricing to Bianchi's Japanese manufacturer.
The trick of using heavier gauge down tubes and chainstays to stiffen the bottom bracket had long been employed by small volume framebuilders but things hit the mainstream in 1983 when Reynolds introduced 531C, which utilized a heavier gauge down tube. Columbus offered their solution in 1984 with SLX and SPX, which had helical ridges inside the bottom bracket end of the down tube, seat tube and chainstays. Miyata responded in 1985 with with triple buttled tubing that had heavier butts at the bottom bracket end of the seat and down tubes. Ishiwata went one step further with quad butted tubing in 1985.
Bianchi introduced Superset II as a refinement of Superset. The oversize downtube further increased stiffness, as did the oval bottom bracket end of the downtube with the lateral orientation of the major axis. Both tricks had previously been employed by ATB manufacturers and Masi had introduced the Volumetrica with it's oversized tubes in 1984.
Edit: I forgot to mention that the use of Ishiwata or Tange in the Supersets for a given year was probably as simple as which tubing manufacturing offered the best pricing to Bianchi's Japanese manufacturer.
09-24-23, 10:24 PM
#65
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The latest carbons I tried at the shop...the Specialized Tarmac and what not are even worse than my Centurion. You can't feel the bike nor the ground...and it's not even significantly faster than my Bianchi nor the Ironmans..
Last edited by PTL011; 09-24-23 at 10:55 PM.
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09-24-23, 10:31 PM
#66
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Okay, this makes up for the earlier PX-10 heresy. I suppose you can stay
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09-24-23, 10:33 PM
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I bought my PX-10 in 1970, because at $180 it was the least expensive sew-up tire bike. The owners of Sugden and Lynch Bicycles in Palo Alto probably high fived each other when I took that turkey off their hands.
It wasn't a very good bike, at least for that level of machine, although it was nicer than the Peugeot UO-8 that it replaced. I rode it for about six months, then I found out about Colnagos, and I got one. I don't even remember whom I sold the PX-10 to.
It wasn't a very good bike, at least for that level of machine, although it was nicer than the Peugeot UO-8 that it replaced. I rode it for about six months, then I found out about Colnagos, and I got one. I don't even remember whom I sold the PX-10 to.
I was reasonably happy with mine, also graduating from a U08, kept it for a couple years before selling it and buying a bike boom Bob Jackson from the Garners. That was a genuine mistake. Tom Ritchey had to repair the brake bridge for me after the first ride: The only thing holding it in place on one side was the paint. I bought a Pogliaghi shortly thereafter which I kept for many years.
Brent
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04-17-24, 03:47 PM
#68
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Not sure if anyone is following this thread anymore, but I'll just add a couple notes. Regarding Chaba's post, while it's true that Thevenet's winning bikes were built in the new Atelier Prestige, so were his teammates' and also customers' bikes that were special-ordered. That workshop turned out all the PY10s and Pro 10s sold, at least according to Peugeot. And that workshop only existed a few years; before and after the teams rode production bikes, even with Delrin derailleurs before the alloy SLJ AR615 was introduced in the early 70s. Only a few stars could afford bespoke frames from guys like Colnago, Masi, Carré, etc. Pro riders were mostly not well paid at all, and in general, bikes weren't fetishized so much then. They fit, were set up properly, and rolled on light wheels with the best tires available. All the bikes were capable, wherever they were made. A recreational rider today would have to be in very good condition indeed to truly exploit a race-ready Peugeot or any other race bike from that time.
Last edited by mikestr; 04-17-24 at 11:44 PM.
04-18-24, 08:18 AM
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My 1969 PX10
1969 PX10
Its Phil hubs are worth more than the purchase price
1979 PKN10 with Unique paint mod, a $50 purchase
Gugi Analysis
Gugificazione
After Gugimagic
On the road again
1969 PX10
Its Phil hubs are worth more than the purchase price
1979 PKN10 with Unique paint mod, a $50 purchase
Gugi Analysis
Gugificazione
After Gugimagic
On the road again
Last edited by ollo_ollo; 04-18-24 at 10:21 AM. Reason: fix caption
04-18-24, 08:29 PM
#70
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If there were any need to demonstrate the affection, even veneration the PX-10 is held in by cyclists of a certain age, and others, that has been done in this discussion. There was in fact a whole class of affordable French racing bike patterned after it, with a 531 DB frame, the Stronglight 93 crank, MAFAC Racer or Competition brakes, Simplex Prestige derailleur, and tubular wheels, from Gitane, Mercier, Bertin, Follis, and others. They are mythic: good enough to win the TDF, affordable to a college student or a boy with a paper route.
These bikes evolved over the years: The geometry tightened up, components updated. For many years Peugeot avoided making a more expensive model, but as noted earlier the PX was dethroned by the PY, Pro 10, PZ10, and the PY10FC. There were some interesting variations. The bike below was the last PX10 as top model, a real team bike, the 1974 PX10L (LE in some markets):
This is exactly as sold new, except for the front derailleur, which was the fragile Super Competition, replaced here by the first SLJ model. Consumables are refreshed, of course. What is striking is the geometry of this 54 cm (C-C) frame: The seat and head angles are extreme, 75 and 76 degrees, respectively, and the length of the top tube is a long 57 cm. There is an entire discussion of these models from the 70s. I mention this because of the earlier comments about the PX's "touring" geometry. Not true here, and I can tell you that the rider of this bike needs to pay attention and have decent skills. And note: 22mm tires are standard here. Not a bike for casual use.
Forgot to mention: 6-speed (126mm) rear spacing but supplied with a 5 speed Cyclo FW as standard. I assume that a 6 speed FW was optional.
These bikes evolved over the years: The geometry tightened up, components updated. For many years Peugeot avoided making a more expensive model, but as noted earlier the PX was dethroned by the PY, Pro 10, PZ10, and the PY10FC. There were some interesting variations. The bike below was the last PX10 as top model, a real team bike, the 1974 PX10L (LE in some markets):
This is exactly as sold new, except for the front derailleur, which was the fragile Super Competition, replaced here by the first SLJ model. Consumables are refreshed, of course. What is striking is the geometry of this 54 cm (C-C) frame: The seat and head angles are extreme, 75 and 76 degrees, respectively, and the length of the top tube is a long 57 cm. There is an entire discussion of these models from the 70s. I mention this because of the earlier comments about the PX's "touring" geometry. Not true here, and I can tell you that the rider of this bike needs to pay attention and have decent skills. And note: 22mm tires are standard here. Not a bike for casual use.
Forgot to mention: 6-speed (126mm) rear spacing but supplied with a 5 speed Cyclo FW as standard. I assume that a 6 speed FW was optional.
Last edited by mikestr; 04-21-24 at 06:38 PM. Reason: Added info
