bikemikemi

I got a hold of a Raleigh competition frame. The great news its my size, 25". My problem is i only have newer components in my spare parts bin. I have some older 10:spd campy laying around, Is there any way I can get the rear triangle to work(widen to 130 mm)?

daverup 

This might help,
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

due ruote 

Currently 120? I would recommend clamping the brake bridge before bending the stays.
Also be sure to check the dropout alignment after cold setting.

nlerner

Short answer: yes. Medium answer: Results may vary. Longer answer: Going from 120 to 130mm is a lot--find a different frame for those parts (or one that's spaced 126mm from the start).

rccardr 

Or go Shimano. 6401 and 7700 rear hubs (among other 8-9-10 speed rear hubs) can be easily narrowed to 120 mm by installing a 7 speed HG freehub and replacing the NDS 6mm spacer with a 1mm spacer, shortening the axle, and using 8 cogs with 9 speed spacers (or 9 cogs with 10 speed spacers).

Can be friction shifted or indexed, use the same shifter type as the spacers used.

gugie 

I do that often.

If you have to clamp the brake bridge to keep it from breaking, there's a problem with the brazing. I've stretched dozens and dozens of frames from 120 to 130. Do check dropouts for parallelism. I'd do that on a vintage Raleigh frame even if you don't spread it to 130!

For those that say you shouldn't do it, my counter arguement is two names: Peter Weigle and Brian Chapman. It's not something I'd recommend you do yourself without some training (I was taught by Ed Litton), but many have used the Sheldon Brown method successfully (see above). If you're in my area I'd do it for you in exchange for some adult beverage ;-)
@nlerner:
Big Red went from 120-130. If you sneak up on it I don't think there's much risk of creasing a chain stay.

reroll

+1

Your longer answer is the right answer for a number of good reasons.

79pmooney

Basic sophomore engineering here. If you have to distort a steel beam until it bends, 1) start with a skinny one. 2) stay away from very high strength steels with little margin between yield and breaking.

OP has a Raleigh Competition. 531 steel. Highish strength but nothing radical at all. Now his chainstays may be regular Reynolds chainstays for diameter but they may also be the butted chainstays the Competitions were known for (see Gugie's photo above). (Raleigh built those bikes with both.) Those butted chainstays are barely bigger than pencils. Between that and the 531 steel, I am quite confident you could stretch a 120 OLD to 140. 130? The bike's not even going to blink.

One caution - this Competition could be a bike boom Raleigh. Anything in the wide spectrum of quality control is possible. Mine came with so little braze in the lugs that the alignment was perfect. No heat distortion. A local framebuilder filled all the lugs like he was building a new bike. They drank the braze like they were dying of thirst.

nlerner

I bolded the important part above--not something to try without some adult guidance. I can remember the first time I tried Sheldon Brown's 2 x 4 method; I think I took that poor frame to about 150mm rear end, then corrected, then widened, then corrected. It didn't fail under my ownership, but I have doubts about its current viability.

bikingshearer 

I've had a couple frames widened from 120mm to 130mm with no issues, so it is certainly doable. Note that I had it done by someone else (one by Ed Litton, one by a now-retired shop owner who spoke fluent C&V and 100% knew is stuff). I would trust gugie to do it right, but he lives 600 miles away. I would not try to do it myself on a frame I expected to be ridden, by me or anyone else. You want someone who has (1) the right tools, and I do not mean a 2x4, and (2) significant experience doing it successfully.

That's my opinion, and it's worth exactly what you're paying for it.

Classtime 

Use all thread, some washers, a couple of nuts, and a strap or clamp at the brake bridge for added piece of mind. Spread em some, then remove the all thread and measure. Repeat as necessary.

Chuck M 

Gugie did say he would do it for an adult beverage. So it checks one of the boxes.

tiger1964 

Not having tried it YET, I like how that solution sounds.

bikemig 

I have nothing against modernizing an older bike but there's a lot to be said for hunting down older parts to make it work.

Do you have the original parts for that bike?

Also does this bike have huret drop outs?

ehcoplex 

That's how I've spread the triangle on a few of my bikes. It just seems more controlled than the 2x4 method..... A couple long carriage bolts and some washers & nuts make a cheap dropout alignment tool, too.

bulgie 

I know many people report success with that method, but I recommend against it. It's likely to result in all the bending happening on one side only, so the frame will be horribly out of alignment when done.

The Sheldon method only requires a 2x4 and is safer, more likely to result in a properly aligned frame when done. It does require patience and a bit of finesse.

Unless you're pretty handy, most people should bring it to a specialist. Seattle-area BF'ers can bring it to me, I charge a dollar a minute and it typically takes under a half-hour. Can be 10 minutes if you bring me just the frame, stripped of parts. Since I hold the frame by the BB in a vise, the cranks need to be off, but the spindle and cups can stay in. Of course I can remove the parts too, but you save some money by doing as much as you can by yourself first.

I'll strap the bridges if you want, but I agree with gugie that properly-brazed bridges don't pop from this procedure. Personally, if I had a frame with a bridge that poorly brazed, I'd want to know! Easy for me to say though, since I can re-braze a bridge that pops... but if it happens, it'll be a first for me. Of the thousand or more frames I've cold-set, many were top-quality frames that I built and which were getting only small adjustments, but I've also widened quite a few vintage frames of "variable" quality. Some pretty iffy-looking braze jobs, but none had the bridge break loose, that I can recall anyway. I think I'd remember.

If the Raleigh in question has Reynolds "rapid taper" chainstays, then this widening will be a breeze. They're small diameter (easy to bend) and without any indents, which makes it safer. Indents are not usually a problem, but they are a complication, one place that might kink or crack if the frame is borderline. I don't remember what year(s) of Competition got those stays, but I'll guess around 1970-71. Round-oval-round stays are the second safest, with indented ("dimpled") stays being maybe only 95% safe. I wouldn't let indents stop me from widening a frame though, it's just something to watch out for. Especially a chainring clearance indent on the outside of the right stay, which makes that side bend out much more easily than the left. Easy to bend too far if you aren't familiar with how much weaker the chainring indent makes it.

Mark B

Murray Missile 

I use one of those small floor jacks to coldset frames. I lay the frame on its side on a raised surface or blocks so the lower dropout is off the ground and place a board under the jack and another on top between the rear dropouts with a support under the jack to support it's weight and hold it level and roughly centered between the dropouts. I measure the width before I start then SLOWLY pump it up until I reach the desired width. I release the jack and measure it to get an idea how much it's going to come back. That gives me a good idea how far I have to spread it with the jack to have it return to the desired width. I've done about a dozen or so this way with excellent results. I spent quite a few years working in metal fabrication shops though so I have a pretty good "feel" for it. I've had a lot of experience with Porta-powers, pry bars and BFH's and I have the scars to prove it.

squirtdad

I used that method to go from 126 to 135 should work for going 120 to 130 (it was on a nishiki olympic 12 so not super highend, but not gas pipe) Just took it slow to get a feel for how much force and how much end movement i got.

icemilkcoffee 

I am going to interrupt this Kumbaya circle to once again state my objection to spreading frames. I will never buy a frame that's been jacked by somebody on his garage floor and I suspect most of you won't neither.
Especially not when there are known workarounds for adapting modern groupsets to old frames.

gugie 

Agreed! If you don't know who did the work, maybe walkaway. But a LOT of us want 8+ cogs in the back, and you need 130mm for that.

Meanwhile, I'm thinking of driving up to @bulgie's shop so I can hold hands and sing Kumbaya as we butcher a vintage frame...

And while we're at it, here are three, count 'em three vintage Raleigh Competitions spread to 130mm.
By Peter Weigle in 2014. Object if you like, won't hurt my feelings at all. I'm just posting this as a counterpoint for others reading this thread and possibly contemplating going to 130mm.


The one on the top is mine (see Big Red, above)

Mr. 66

I think many people are updating the old steel for user friendly gears. I don't think of any different that me grabbing an old MTB mini groups for road bikes. I myself enjoy seeing the changes that Gugie does. I went out of the way and picked up (street finds) wasted steel of low value to push and play around with. I've practiced, and have just enough tooling to be able to do so.

I have here the bike I call the pretzel. True I did not respace, but I took that same knowledge to get the forks at spec. I took the bows out of the rear triangles, including the brake bridge side to side. This bike had looked like someone had a passenger on the rack and forks were pushed back.

Suntour mini group, I felt so good using this in a cyclocross manner.

jdawginsc 

Are those light fixture brazeons?

gugie 

Yep, it's a Weigle signature feature. His are battery powered, Velo Lumino and Rene Herse sell wired versions. On the plus side, they're well protected since they're inside the rear triangle "envelope." If you have a large rear bag the light is blocked. Rene Herse sells the braze on bit as a kit, but I just buy M6 bosses from framebuilder supply and use a small piece of scrap tubing to miter the angle.

Pic from Rene Herse website

jdawginsc 

Interesting. I like the placement.

fender1

If you want it too, sure. Looking at my local CL & FB Marketplace, the tide is out on vintage bikes. Given the popularity of e-bikes, anything without and engine and disc brakes will be seen as no longer viable.

Most of the frames people are talking about modifying are of no historical value and are quickly losing monetary value in the eyes of the general general public.

Us "old timers" ( I am 55) are seen as people who are stuck in the past and don't ride in a meaningful way. The reality is you can only ride one bike at a time, so why not make it something you enjoy?