2WheelWilly

Hi All! I have a decision on my hands and I hoped some folks here might be able to help. For the first time in a pretty long life of riding I'm on the market for a new (to me) bike. Until now I'd been riding a 50 year-old steel hand-me-down (daily commutes and touring) but it's finally on its last... wheels? I had what I thought was a pretty big budget for replacing it, but I hadn't checked bike prices in a while and they aren't what I remember 😂! Basically, I'm ambitious/vain enough to want something a bit less generic than what I can find off the rack, but to do that (given my budget) I probably need to buy something used.

I like everything I've read about the Ritchey Outback V2--I'm partial to steel, and it seems versatile enough to tour with, do occasional unloaded day rides with friends, and commute/grocery shop, etc. I like the look as well. There's a used frameset available that looks to be in good shape for ~$900 (does that seem fair?). The problem is I'm not really expert enough to be confident sourcing the components and (particularly) putting the bike together myself. A dear friend of mine who is pretty mechanically expert advises me just to get a complete (new) bike off the rack, but the more unique fully built new bikes that suit my precious/vain sensibilities would be out of my price range.

So, my questions are--

(1) Supposing I were to source all the parts/components to build out the bike from a shop (to incentivize them to do the build for me)--roughly how much should I expect to spend? I think a 2x drivetrain with wide gearing would best suit me--something like a Shimano 105, GRX600 or GRX400. I'm not obsessing about shaving grams, but I do want stuff that's well built, reliable, and pleasant to use--I'm not interested in cutting costs to such an extent that I'd fall below any of those thresholds.

(2) Any suggestions about what components to use to build out the bike?

Thanks for any advice! Oh, and if anyone feels very strongly that I should just give up my vain dream, suck it up, and order a perfectly nice fully built Kona Sutra off the internet, I'm open to having that kind of cold water thrown on me, too. Re building up the bike myself, I'm super interested in learning, but while I'm not allergic to mechanics, I'm not talented, and my friend rightly thinks I'd be better served learning by working on a very cheap frame (I have a few of those) or by tinkering with the bike after it's been built. Buying the components I could certainly do: I'm fine at reading things/asking people to discover what's compatible, and I'm fine at searching the Internet until I find a decent price. But I figure a shop is more likely to work with me if I buy the components through them--based on what I've read in other fora here, shops look askance if you bring them a frame and a bunch of parts you bought yourself and then ask them to build it out for you.

My hope is just to end up with a bike I love that will last me for the next few decades, like my old one has. I don't really enjoy the whole purchasing/decision making process.

Caliwild

If the frame is in good shape, that's not a bad price. I'd just check for any dents. Also, I'd just get it built up the way you like; however, that'll definitely cost more than just buying a complete bike (ask me how I know!). I'm not super handy when it comes to bikes, so I always get my shop to do the work. They get a nice chunk of change (support the local shops!), and I'm ensured that I don't screw something up. I'd go GRX and try to find some deals on cockpit, seat post, and wheels online. The deals are out there if you look (just this week, I found a Chris King wheelset with H Plus Son rims in great shape for $250). Good luck, and have fun with it! It's always nice to have a bike that is personalized to your needs, wants, and tastes...

mstateglfr 

https://www.excelsports.com/ritchey-...oaAi5cEALw_wcB
That frameset new in the green color is only $1279 right now, with headset and thruaxles included. Considering that price, $900 for a used frameset isnt great. Its not awful, but its also not great. Just something to consider.


This is a pretty good deal on 105. https://www.merlincycles.com/en-us/s...et-119887.html
The stock gearing may not be great, but thats a personal thing and each of us is different. It gives you the option of a 10-34 cassette, which is a 1:1 low ratio with the 105 compact crank's gearing. Its only $80-130 to buy a more compact crank that is 46/30, if that is better for you.

https://www.merlincycles.com/en-us/f...sort=price-min
Since I already linked Merlin, here are some thru axle wheels that would work with Shimano drivetrains.
One of the lowest priced wheelsets listed is a Fulcrum 900 DB which is a stock wheelset on some of Canyon's gravel bikes as well as another brand(cant remember). I actually have a rim brake version of the Fulcrum 900 wheels that I bought for $80 last winter and they are fantastic. They are really low in price because of a sale and not because they are poorly made or use junk materials. $177 for Shimano 11sp right now- https://www.merlincycles.com/en-us/f...0c-212605.html
Here is another solid option for not a ton of money- https://www.merlincycles.com/en-us/f...0b-212629.html
One more great option in terms of cost and known name brand is this DT Swiss wheelset- https://www.merlincycles.com/en-us/d...0c-198132.html
Fulcrum is a brand owned by Campagnolo, so it isnt some no-name brand and its very well known and established.

When it comes to wheels, the options are seemingly endless. Like really endless. Prices are $150-1500, spoke count is most anything you want, hubs vary in weight and quality, etc etc.
I will just say that higher cost often means higher quality, but not always. Also, like many things in life, diminishing returns quickly show up. A handbuilt $450 wheelset with Bitex hubs and butted spokes can be, and typically is, just as high quality as a $700 wheelset from a wheel brand.
If you want some quality handbuilt wheels, look at prowheelbuilder.com and build your own or call them and ask for them to spec a wheelset for you. I havent looked in the last year, but even just 1 year ago you could get a really high quality disc wheelset that is handbuilt with proper tension and true, for $450. It was their house brand rim, bitex centerlock hubs, and double butted sapim spokes.




I wouldnt think twice about buying online and bringing your bike to the shop for any work that you cant do at home.
Patience and youtube can explain 97% of a bike build. You would need to just take the bike to the shop for them to look over the build for safety, cut brake hoses to proper length, and adjust anything you cant adjust at home.
Building at home requires a few specific tools to properly tighten components. Really though, almost all of a build is tightening things int he correct way/order.
If a shop looks down on you or isnt willing to install components you bought, then you should take your stuff to a different shop. Simple as that.

Koyote

And I just got an email about this today. Steel doesn't get much better than Reynolds 853, and this one also comes with thru-axles and a headset.

SoSmellyAir

For just a bit more you can get a titanium frame: GR300 Titanium Gravel Bicycle Frame with External Cable Routing - Lynskey Performance Designs

As for the build, perhaps get an LBS to install just the headset, bottom bracket, and crankset, and you can handle the remainder, which should not be difficult if you are at least somewhat mechanically inclined.

DorkDisk

I've built up two Ritchey Swiss Crosses recently at home during the pandemic. Ritchey 1 got GRX600 and Easton wheels, Ritchey 2 got Chorus and Hunt wheels.

The fork is easy to install as the fork race is built in and the cups are integrated. You just drop the bearings in and thats it. I have all the headset tools at home but none were needed.

The bottom bracket is standard threaded so that's pretty easy to do on your own also.

If the fork is cut, make sure you have enough length to make it work for you. If you don't have a torque wrench, you should get one, the seat tube crushes if you torque the front derailleur past 2Nm, which is super low.

FYI, the frameset includes the frame, fork, headset, and axles; I'd also get new since its on sale.

grolby

I also encourage buying new with the current sale. Ritchey steel frames are sweet and are what people actually mean when they talk about the magic ride of steel (Surly and etc… aren’t). Total spend with a $1279 frame set could very easily come in under $2500.

2WheelWilly

Thank you all for this fantastic advice! I'm definitely leaning strongly toward the Outback build now. A couple of additional questions, if anyone is willing to indulge me.

My main remaining worries are interlinked: (1) that I won't be able to test ride the frame before buying; and (2) that its geometry won't be well suited to me. Having only really ridden my ~'73 Motobecane Grand Record, I don't have a great idea of what kind of frame geometry/setup suits me, but I suspect that I'd be happier with a drop-bar bike that has a relatively (but not radically) upright geometry and doesn't stretch me out too much. While I'll do some off pavement stuff, most of my riding will be commuting and light touring (on pavement and poorly maintained urban bike paths full of infuriating tree roots) and I care more about comfort than top speed. So, what I'm wondering is:

re (2), the only thing I've read about the Outback that hasn't screamed "perfect" to me is that the stack is relatively low. Will this lock me into a too-aggressive geometry? Does the integrated headset on the frame somehow make the stack height less adjustable? and, re (1), granted I probably can't find an Outback to try out before buying--are there other frames with roughly similar geometries? If so, maybe I could find one of those to test ride to get a sense of whether I could dial it into a riding position that works well for me.

Last, unrelated, question, just out of curiosity: I notice, SoSmelly, that you mention the gr300 above. That's another frame I'd been looking at for awhile, before concluding that a titanium bike might be more stressful to own than it's worth (don't want to have to worry about the bike being SO noticeable and attractive to thieves--not that I lock the bike in public a lot, but I don't want to be worrying about it all the time). I'm curious--theft/appearance worries aside, do people think the Lynskey frame would be a clearly superior frame to the Outback in terms of ride quality, durability, etc.? If so I'd consider changing course. I'd assumed that the two frames were comparable at worst and that for my purposes the Outback would be at least as suitable.

Thanks!

P.S. Grolby, I see you're Boston-based. I grew up here and now I'm back in town after several years away. Those tree-root plagued bike paths I have in mind are the Southwest Corridor and the path along the Charles/Mem drive on the Cambridge side. Such an annoyingly bumpy ride on what would otherwise be such great paths!

SoSmellyAir

No idea how tall 2WheelWilly is or what size frame would fit him, but comparing the respective frames in size M, both frames have similar Reach and Stack, but the Effective Top Tube of the Ritchey Outback is 16.5 mm longer than the Lynskey GR300, so one would be more "stretched out" on the former. Not owning either a stainless steel or a titanium frame, I cannot comment on ride quality, but it does seem that the latter would be lighter!

mstateglfr 

Stack height is fixed, it isn't adjustable. The type of headset doesn't change stack height.
You can adjust your ultimate fit though by having more spacers under the stem and using an angled stem like a +17 rise stem instead of -7 rise stem, for example.
Also, multiple brands now have a drop bar model in their lineup that rises up 20mm or so. If one of those has the bend shape and dimensions you like, that could help a lot with improving the frame's lower stack height when it comes to ultimate fit.

The Outback is an outlier in that it very much bucks the trend of pretty much every other gravel bike/frame and uses long chainstays. Noticeably longer than average.

some random options in similar price…
Ribble CGR- $1525 delivered. 725 steel frame and carbon fork. https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/ribble-cgr-725-frameset/

Fairlight Secan- $1550 delivered. 853 steel frame and carbon fork. A lot of sizes to help you fit perfectly. https://fairlightcycles.com/product/secan-deposit/

Black Mountain Cycles ModZero- $1145 with steel fork and $1495 with carbon fork. Quality tubing and designed by a very well respected guy within the industry.
https://blackmtncycles.com/product-category/mod-zero/

The above all have stack and reach that would be more upright compared to the Ritchey.
Inown a Secan and a Black Mountain(different model) and both are excellent quality.

Metieval

No personal experience, but from A few comments that gr300 is overly stiff in the front.
Fwiw take it or leave it. Definitely something to think about before committing to building it.

YK_

You might need to elaborate on this

Metieval

Somethings are better left discovered than explained.
Especially when a brand like surly has a cult like following.

grolby

Yes, I know them well, especially the Southwest Corridor. It’s very bumpy indeed, and a comfortable frame certainly won’t hurt.

There’s not much to elaborate on?

mstateglfr 

He is saying Surly bikes aren't examples of what people are talking about when they wax poetically about how quality steel feels.

YK_

Both Surly and Ritchey frames are made in Taiwan. I'm curious what you think the significant differences are in production quality

grolby

I don’t want to derail this thread any further. But to clarify, what I meant was that Ritchey steel frames ride very well and Surly steel frames (and budget steel in general, not just Surly) don’t. Production quality, in the sense of quality standards and control, isn’t what I meant. Production quality in the sense how the “niceness” of the finished product is definitely different, and obviously so if you look at or ride the bikes. But a Ritchey frameset sells for about twice as much as a Surly does, it would be pretty bad if it wasn’t a nicer bike. I guess I’m not sure what being built in Taiwan has to do with it. Is the implication that only one grade of bicycle frame is built in the whole country?

mstateglfr 

Why did you post the country where both frames are manufactured? That has nothing to do with the discussion.

YK_

Country of manufacturing matters because $1500 retail for a mass produced steel frameset made in Taiwan is overpriced. Ritchey isn't putting out bespoke MiUSA frames that would typically command that high of a price. There is a non-zero chance the same factory producing Ritchey frames produces Surly frames. Spend your money how you want, but telling people that the "magic of steel" can't be found within the likes of Surly offerings is pretentious (and delusional). But the cycling industry is built around excessive consumerism... so carry on I guess.

Metieval

Based on your posting history, what is the nicest frame you've owned and have ridden?

I mean your posting history gives an image of what you ride dictated by your environment, but I thought I'd just ask.

mstateglfr 

Some flaws in your post...
- MUSA bespoke framesets cost more than $1500, so claiming Ritchey frameset pricing is akin to bespoke is disconnected from reality.
- just because 2 things come from the same factory does not mean they are of the same quality. Both spec and finish can, and often are, wildly different. This same factory claim is old and been shown to be worthless many times over.

grolby

Ok that’s fine. From experience owning both, Ritchey frames have a smoother and livelier ride than a Surly and it’s a nice experience to have. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course, but I also think Ritcheys are much prettier. Of course price is a reasonable consideration and a perfectly fine reason to prefer a Surly. The OP asked about a Ritchey Outback though and I just wanted to explain that my experience with them has been very positive and superior in some ways to other popular mass-produced framesets. I’m sorry to say that custom USA-made steel frames don’t sell for what a Ritchey does, as it would be very nice if they did. You can sneak in under $2k with a Rock Lobster, though I have to say Paul is both a fabulous builder and also probably should charge more for his work. And of course that price doesn’t include a fork.

I regret the comment about Surly since I really was just trying to express my affection for Ritchey frames. Which I have to say I think are a fantastic value even at full retail price. With the discount currently being offered due to overstock, it’s a no-brainer for me. I wish I could justify an Outback but I have far too many bikes already.

YK_

Quote:

Originally Posted by grolby

Ok that’s fine. From experience owning both, Ritchey frames have a smoother and livelier ride than a Surly and it’s a nice experience to have. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course, but I also think Ritcheys are much prettier. Of course price is a reasonable consideration and a perfectly fine reason to prefer a Surly. The OP asked about a Ritchey Outback though and I just wanted to explain that my experience with them has been very positive and superior in some ways to other popular mass-produced framesets. I’m sorry to say that custom USA-made steel frames don’t sell for what a Ritchey does, as it would be very nice if they did. You can sneak in under $2k with a Rock Lobster, though I have to say Paul is both a fabulous builder and also probably should charge more for his work. And of course that price doesn’t include a fork.

Completely understand that perspective and understand the brand loyalty. I've also spent more than I should have on frames/components with cheaper (but equally good) alternatives available. I'm only trying to emphasize that you don't have to stretch your budget to get a great steel frame in case someone reading this is getting into the hobby and doesn't have the financial means to splurge on a Ritchey. Appreciate the acknowledgement of the original comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

Some flaws in your post...

Price-wise, a Ritchey to a Rock Lobster is a 19% increase, a Surly to a Ritchey is a 130% increase. Ritchey's pricing is a LOT closer to bespoke frames than Surly's is to Ritchey. My original comment wasn't addressed to you, but given your ~5x/day posts here for the last nine years, I can tell this place means a lot to you, so I'll just concede to any future comments with a "you're right man"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metieval

Based on your posting history, what is the nicest frame you've owned and have ridden?

Ha, yeah my post history is probably a bit misleading to my current cycling interests.. Most are from ~10 years ago when I was first getting into bikes and piecing together fixed gears on a college budget. To answer your question, I'm a hypocrite and also indulge in over-consumption of cycling goods. My "nicest" frame by MSRP standards is a Fat Chance. It's why I feel at least partially qualified to comment on high-end steel vs Surly/Surly-adjacent steel. I built up one of Surly's Midnight Specials for "fast" bikepacking trips and found it to be just as good of a ride as my FC - just not as pretty.

Again, all I'm trying to do is highlight that people don't need to spend a fortune to build up a great steel gravel/cx bike. If someone wants to go crazy and overindulge? Let them. It's their money. Just don't shame lower price-point offerings in the process

mstateglfr 

Rock Lobster has infamously not increased prices in the last couple years. The custom brand chosen is a clear outlier when it comes to cost. And last I saw, forks werent included in the frame cost- that was just the cost of the frame. So add $500 for a Whisky/Ritchey/Enve fork. Is that no longer the case and forks are now included in the cost?

Either way, Rock Lobster is so clearly an outlier on price that this is not discussing your gripe in good faith.

Custom MUSA framesets are really more in the $2600-4000 range, depending on the builder. The mean and median are both probably $3200 right now- for a frame and fork that is painted 1 color.

grolby

This is certainly a noble intent, but the OP was asking specifically about the Ritchey. I don’t think it’s shaming anyone to note that a product is clearly superior to a more affordable competitor. In fact, isn’t it good to know when you’re buying more than just a badge with that premium? I think anyone who is eyeing a Ritchey who has only experienced steel at a lower price point is going to be very impressed by the experience. I know I was. That’s not shaming but it’s worth knowing that there’s a very clear qualitative difference,

Yes, I brought up Rock Lobster because I happen to own one and because they’re the clear outlier, and no, forks aren’t included, which I pointed out in my post. So it’s incorrect to say a Rock Lobster is 19% more than a Ritchey. I do also strongly endorse Rock Lobster, by the way.