Adding electric
#26
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Exactly. Even the All Axle Motor has to produce torque, or ... what's the point. So ... 'lesser' motors, equipped with torque arms are not suddenly obsoleted by the existence of the AAM. The point of the AAM is its adaptability to different use scenarios. It is still a hub motor at the end of the day. All hub motors produce their torque around the axle centerpoint. There is no way possible to get around that.
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Exactly. Even the All Axle Motor has to produce torque, or ... what's the point. So ... 'lesser' motors, equipped with torque arms are not suddenly obsoleted by the existence of the AAM. The point of the AAM is its adaptability to different use scenarios. It is still a hub motor at the end of the day. All hub motors produce their torque around the axle centerpoint. There is no way possible to get around that.
#28
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The engineering of both the All Axle hub Motor and the Gmac/Grin version of the Mac motor are designed so the fit to the bicycle is not haphazard. This in itself reduces the stress on the stays. Grins Phaserunner and Baserunner controllers allow you to control startup torque and other parameters that other controllers don't . The mounting of the torque arm for both these motors does not allow any movement. Justin has put allot of time and effort into making changes for the better in an industry that has made little progress since the late 1800s.
Armto mentioned their Cyntronix (sp?) solution. I looked at that when I started my journey and was concerned about the low power dissipation motor. Also, they were out of stock and weren't sure when they would have more (this was last fall). Sounds like that solution works well for them. I am going to go back and see if I can tell exactly what they are offering to see if there might be a better trade-off components wise for the type of riding we hope to leverage ebike conversion for.
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I think the weight is the real Achilles heal of these ebike motors, and that is limited by physics and materials. Only one of those limitation has the possibility of improving furthe
Armto mentioned their Cyntronix (sp?) solution. I looked at that when I started my journey and was concerned about the low power dissipation motor. Also, they were out of stock and weren't sure when they would have more (this was last fall). Sounds like that solution works well for them. I am going to go back and see if I can tell exactly what they are offering to see if there might be a better trade-off components wise for the type of riding we hope to leverage ebike conversion for.
#30
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Charges in about 2 hours and assists for roughly 25-30 miles depending on demand. The system was just under $500 and takes 4 months to ship from England.
No issues with overheating or fork twisting and that is with a dog trailer attached.
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Getting back to the basic question posed by the OP. I went with Swytch. 250 watt front hub system that adds 6 pounds, 4 of which is a quick release battery that mounts on the front handlebar. This is peddle assist only, though a throttle can be purchased.
Charges in about 2 hours and assists for roughly 25-30 miles depending on demand. The system was just under $500 and takes 4 months to ship from England.
No issues with overheating or fork twisting and that is with a dog trailer attached.
Charges in about 2 hours and assists for roughly 25-30 miles depending on demand. The system was just under $500 and takes 4 months to ship from England.
No issues with overheating or fork twisting and that is with a dog trailer attached.
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#34
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Dude, that story sounds like sheer misery to me. You got hosed big time and learning that you put that kit on a tandem??!! Seriously? 250W on a freaking tandem? A tandem that pulls a trailer no less. There would be know way of knowing if a 250W motor was working or not on our tandem. My wife by herself is good for that when she is in the mood. And four months for delivery is NOT something to get excited about. Your expectations and needs might be very, very basic but this is not the only thread where you have offered up this Swytch thing as some kind of better way for the rest of us. I'm not seeing it.
We can tell that 250w does make an impact based on the data of the same rides year over year.
My experience was not miserable, I learned a lot and imagine a 1st timer is going to have to figure things out...PAS is PAS and will require adjustments depending on the bike you are installing it on. Some of us just want to dip our toes into electric and I stand by that for a newbie this gave me what I was looking for.
Not everyone needs to have something right now, I was in such a rush that I still have the 2nd kit in a box and you know what when I get to it, I get to it. Same with the universal mount they sent me for free...clearly a terrible company.
Looking forward to a nice ride out there today.
Last edited by kayakindude; 05-23-21 at 05:31 AM.
#35
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I am really sorry you seem so negative about something my wife and I have really been enjoying for the past six months. Maybe not everyone wants so much power you barely have to pedal, maybe some of us just want a little assist on hills, point being enjoy riding your way and maybe judge others a tad less.
We can tell that 250w does make an impact based on the data of the same rides year over year.
My experience was not miserable, I learned a lot and imagine a 1st timer is going to have to figure things out...PAS is PAS and will require adjustments depending on the bike you are installing it on. Some of us just want to dip our toes into electric and I stand by that for a newbie this gave me what I was looking for.
Not everyone needs to have something right now, I was in such a rush that I still have the 2nd kit in a box and you know what when I get to it, I get to it. Same with the universal mount they sent me for free...clearly a terrible company.
Looking forward to a nice ride out there today.
We can tell that 250w does make an impact based on the data of the same rides year over year.
My experience was not miserable, I learned a lot and imagine a 1st timer is going to have to figure things out...PAS is PAS and will require adjustments depending on the bike you are installing it on. Some of us just want to dip our toes into electric and I stand by that for a newbie this gave me what I was looking for.
Not everyone needs to have something right now, I was in such a rush that I still have the 2nd kit in a box and you know what when I get to it, I get to it. Same with the universal mount they sent me for free...clearly a terrible company.
Looking forward to a nice ride out there today.
In general, (and I emphasize "general") you cannot compare two motors without having the rated torque data provided. You can, however, in "general" compare the thermal performance based on the motors size/mass.
On relatively flat terrain, a small light weight lower power motor (e.g. 250W) is probably very adequate by offering pedal assist without overheating. If your demands are higher, you need a motor that has greater thermal mass to dissipate the excess heat that will be produced. I know that Rick will extol the thermal advantages of the Grin all axle motor, and to many extents he is correct, however, it still weighs around 9 lbs.
Looking at the Swytch set up, it is a physically small motor. For the demands that we put on our e-set up, this motor a way too small. It may be just fine for lighter team and relatively flat rides, but not for heavier team and hilly terrain, it is way undersized.
The smaller mass motors can overheat and burn up under load in the matter of a few minutes. A larger mass motor can last longer. It all depends on the load profile demanded of the motor. Taken together, the motor, battery, and controller can be engineered to achieve some desired performance behavior while also protecting the motor from overheating. All of this is good, however, if your controller rolls back the power to the motor to protect it just when you need it the most, you have lost a large part of the benefit you were counting on the motor to provide.
You can get a better understanding of motor power from this article https://ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html . The further into the article you read, the deeper into the weeds you get, but the first few paragraphs are a good introduction.
One thing to keep in mind: The bicycle hub motors, controllers, and battery packs are all engineered for a single bike/single rider. By their very design, they are undersized for application on a tandem. Depending on the system make up and intended usage, that limitation may manifest itself in different ways: Limited range, rapid overheating/power roll back, slower acceleration, or excess weight. I know that not everyone is able to engineer their own system and have to rely on the marketing promises of the vendor, and that is fine for many people. I would hope that as ebikes become more mainstream, the industry will harmonize on meaningful rating and comparison metrics to allow for better choice options for the consumer.
Last edited by Alcanbrad; 05-23-21 at 07:51 AM.
#36
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Dude, that story sounds like sheer misery to me. You got hosed big time and learning that you put that kit on a tandem??!! Seriously? 250W on a freaking tandem? A tandem that pulls a trailer no less. There would be know way of knowing if a 250W motor was working or not on our tandem. My wife by herself is good for that when she is in the mood. And four months for delivery is NOT something to get excited about. Your expectations and needs might be very, very basic but this is not the only thread where you have offered up this Swytch thing as some kind of better way for the rest of us. I'm not seeing it.
When I see people mention here about 750 and even 1000W I wonder why they don’t buy a motorcycle! How big are the batteries?? To me, more important than power is battery capacity and, therefore, range, and transportability. The Cytronex C1 has 180Wh battery capacity, is so neat, and simple to fit and does exactly what it is designed to do. For transport, I simply remove the front wheel and put the very light tandem inside our BMW 535i GT. For longer rides, we carry the rapid charger and top up at coffee stops.
in the UK we have a Circe Helios with Shimano STEPS motor, which provides 250W with 408Wh capacity. That tandem is about twice as heavy as our Macchiato with Cytronex and the range is only slightly greater.
Please don’t dismiss 250W without having experienced it, although, in your case, it seems as though you have a very heavy tandem to begin with.
#37
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I agree with you about the apparent misery with the ordering system for Swytch, but you are wrong about 250W on a tandem. As Ive probably mentioned elsewhere, we bought our Cytronex system to enable us oldies (162 years combined) to keep up with our group at 16-18 mph for 20-25 miles and it does the job even on the lowest power setting which is about 80W. I almost never use max or even medium power ..........but we do live in Florida. It never ceases to amaze me how much that 80W boost gives when needed.
When I see people mention here about 750 and even 1000W I wonder why they dont buy a motorcycle! How big are the batteries?? To me, more important than power is battery capacity and, therefore, range, and transportability. The Cytronex C1 has 180Wh battery capacity, is so neat, and simple to fit and does exactly what it is designed to do. For transport, I simply remove the front wheel and put the very light tandem inside our BMW 535i GT. For longer rides, we carry the rapid charger and top up at coffee stops.
in the UK we have a Circe Helios with Shimano STEPS motor, which provides 250W with 408Wh capacity. That tandem is about twice as heavy as our Macchiato with Cytronex and the range is only slightly greater.
Please dont dismiss 250W without having experienced it, although, in your case, it seems as though you have a very heavy tandem to begin with.
When I see people mention here about 750 and even 1000W I wonder why they dont buy a motorcycle! How big are the batteries?? To me, more important than power is battery capacity and, therefore, range, and transportability. The Cytronex C1 has 180Wh battery capacity, is so neat, and simple to fit and does exactly what it is designed to do. For transport, I simply remove the front wheel and put the very light tandem inside our BMW 535i GT. For longer rides, we carry the rapid charger and top up at coffee stops.
in the UK we have a Circe Helios with Shimano STEPS motor, which provides 250W with 408Wh capacity. That tandem is about twice as heavy as our Macchiato with Cytronex and the range is only slightly greater.
Please dont dismiss 250W without having experienced it, although, in your case, it seems as though you have a very heavy tandem to begin with.
#38
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A lot of good feedback on motors and wattage. It makes asking the OP what kind of rider they are and type of terrain pertinent.
On indoor rides I'm an average 220 watts and the wife 95 watts, so maybe that's why a 250 motor is adequate for us? I definitely don't need assist when riding solo and don't track watts outside. Also up in coastal New England so overheating would rarely be an issue.
On indoor rides I'm an average 220 watts and the wife 95 watts, so maybe that's why a 250 motor is adequate for us? I definitely don't need assist when riding solo and don't track watts outside. Also up in coastal New England so overheating would rarely be an issue.
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