Psimet2001 

Ah... you edited your comment to add this.

I never said no one has ever made a foolish purchasing decision. I am simply asserting that Pros closet doesn't make a living hoping to that everything they sell is that one foolish bike buying experience that everyone inevitably makes. They know what they're doing and have a large enough staff to do it. If they were bad at it they would be gone. So by you pointing it out to them they were confident enough to simply lower it $50. You made it obvious you thought that was far too little to lower it and yet it appears their confidence was well placed if the bike then sold.

You've chosen to not take the time and understand why they knew to only lower it $50 and still made the sale. You've decided to explain away your lack of understanding of the the variables in the transaction by calling the buyer a fool. At the end of the day I get the impression the buyer is riding their bike and most likely happy they have it and not on Bikeforums calling someone they don't know a fool for how they spent their own money on their hobby.

Kapusta

What someone is willing to pay is NOT the sole way to determine something's market value. If 999 people are paying $100 for something, and one person pays $200 for that same thing while is was available to them to buy at $100, the real market value is $100. The 1 guy just over-payed.

mstateglfr 

My family owns a horse because my wife and kids ride. I own a bunch of bikes. We are a posterchild for spending that others dont understand. I dont begrudge others for spending money in ways I wouldnt and I fully recognize how easily the same thing could be(and is) done to me.
In the end though, everyone has an opinion as to what is a good value or bad value. Of course they are coming to the table with their unique needs/capabilities/experiences/etc. They arent wrong, even if someone buys that item for the asking price.

Yes Paul and Silca have customers and they are still in business, so clearly they have enough people who find value in their products to be profitable(assume). That doesnt mean a phallic looking titanium computer mount for $175 is something to not even think twice about. Anyone considering purchasing that will look at the price and determine if they think the product is worth the cost. That right there is what you are complaining about- that everything is worth whatever it can be sold for. But if you then ask people 'is that worth it?' they may answer 'nope'. How do you come to terms with the person saying it isnt worth that cost and another person buying it?...obviously- both can exist at the same time, like I posted earlier.

To be clear, taking your view to the logical conclusion results in gas and water price gouging during emergencies. 'Someone will pay it, so its worth that'. It also has the potential to send people into bankruptcy to ensure they live- 'If they will pay that for the insulin, then its worth that'.
Yeah, I went to the extremes, but only because they are very much real. Using your argument, there is no price gouging.


On a side note- 2 podcasts in 2 weeks time?!?! You guys are getting after it!

Kapusta

I did not say that was how they make all their sales. I said that is how they made THIS sale. Yes, they do know their market, and the market has some uneducated buyers in it.

I don't begrudge Pro Closet for taking what people will pay. I am just surprised that some people pay it. Some of the stuff I looked at was reasonably priced. Some not. But yeah, people do pay it. People overpay for stuff all the time.

I have spent a lot of time over the past year, and especially the past few months researching what a very narrow segment of MTB frames are going for both new and used. So I have an idea what I am talking about when I assess their pricing in this segment.

urbanknight

I once added up the hours I spent looking for the best price on a <$100 item and decided that my time was worth more than the amount I saved. There's also a value of it being available now vs later, being able to inspect the item in person before deciding, etc.

burnthesheep

I think I paid $3200 last year this time from them for my 2018 Trinity Pro TT bike. Full di2.

Psimet2001 

I'll start with I agree that there's always a grey area -

Than I'll hit price gouging. That's a real life proof that something is worth what people are willing to pay for it for sure. We only call it gouging because we as a society feel it's unfair/immoral for the needs of the masses. That's typically why we have to resort to regulations and laws at the pointy ends of the spectrum of price to value. The thing with bikes is that they aren't considered life dependent (although many do depend on them for their livelihoods - it's not the same as insulin...as you know).

In the bikes example - I can't imagine spending $5k on a new bike let alone $12.5k. I think it's "stupid". My job forces me to not then jump to the conclusion that everyone who spends that much on a bike is a fool just because I believe you can find the same value for much less. I'm forced to look at the variables. To ask questions. If I think this is so wrong then why do these companies still exist? Enough time has gone by. Why do they have customers? Why are they growing? Maybe....just maybe my perception of the value is not in line with what enough of the market believes. It's a big part of why I stopped judging people for their purchases.

Like with all hobbies though we are inundated with enthusiasts who know better and think everyone is over paying though.

As an aside I inherited a 1928 Model A Ford back in the 90's. I am finally working on it and have taken the time to join some of the clubs. It's a hobby filled with VERY old men. They spend all their time telling everyone how they overpaid for everything. When someone sells their restored car everyone calls them out for the asking price telling them they're a fool... and yet they mostly seem to sell for more than what these old-timers believe they're worth. It's because their hobby is changing and they don't grasp that yet. Just because they bought theirs from the junkyard in the 40's for $20 they can't conceive of it being of unheard of value. We all know the muscle cars guys have jumped the shark with 6 figure cars being the norm, but these guys freak if someone wants over $10k Their protests illicit the same reaction from me that this stuff does in bikes. Just because there's a lot of people that think it shouldn't be that much doesn't mean it's not the right price.

Psimet2001 

The below quote is where you may start to appreciate that there are variables involved with purchases outside of price that have more value to people...

Reflector Guy

That was you I think with the Bianchi flat bar bike? I looked at it too but wasn't in a buying mood.

Psimet2001 

Under the big "PSIMET" tent? Yup.

Reflector Guy

You were in a good spot.... First tent everyone saw when they walked in that room.

Psimet2001 

Had a great day. Not bad considering the last 2 years cleared out anything of remote value. I only brought items I haven't been able to sell for years and I sold most of them.

Interesting note - Not nearly as much haggling on price as there is normally.

Also great story - Rich was with me selling his Pactimo sales samples. He had a box of arm warmers marked $5. He had a ton of people ask him "how much" all day long. He would say, "$5" and they, every time, would scrunch up their faces and put them back. It got both of us wondering why and playing out fake discussions about that price between each other. "Well sir that's about the lowest price I can think of and somehow that wasn't low enough. What, pray tell, would have been that magic number for you to hear? $4? $3? How cheap do arm warmers need to be in order to be deemed valuable for you? Did you actually intend on buying them or was the idea of picking them up and asking 'how much' more along the lines of the satisfaction you were looking to get?"

It was like the real life version of online used parts sales when you list something for $10 and someone message you a $5 offer, you say sure, and they ghost you.

mcours2006

You can overpay for something. Doesn't mean you're a fool. You make your decision based on the best information you have at the moment. 'Market price' is different in different areas. It's not like the stock exchange where you have millions of buys and sellers, and market price is the same for everyone, and even then, it changes minute to minute.

'If available locally' is the key phrase in OP--there's no supply and high demand.

surak

I've heard that Pro's Closet throws around coupon codes. Not sure how often, but at least last month I got one for doing an easy Strava Challenge that would've knocked off $250 from any $1k+ purchase. If they actually have discounts often, then the listed price could be marked up above what they expect to sell for.

Kapusta

I would like to retract something I have said. I should not have called the buyer a fool. There is a difference between saying someone did something foolish and saying they are a fool.

I do stand by my assessment that they likely made a foolish decision. It happens.

I thought it would be an uncontroversial thing to point at that buying a used item (especially a full suspension frame which includes a shock that may or may not have been serviced) for essentially the same price as a new one when the new one is in stock and available for purchase is a foolish thing to do.

I stand corrected.

So, which one of you bought the frame?

Broctoon

There are lots of seemingly overpriced bikes and components on the market now, but value can be really subjective or relative.

A few years ago I would not have dreamt of spending more than $5000 on a bike. I have spent about that much on biking over the years, for several bikes plus the parts and accessories to customize and maintain them. Never close to that on one bike.

Last week I was in one of my favorite local shops and saw an offer that just made me drool: a brand new (old stock, not sure what year) Pinarello Dogma F10, Super Record mechanical group, disc brakes, Campy Bora wheels. Beautiful red and white colorway. It's even my size. Original price $10,000, now marked down to $6300. If I had six large disposable right now I would not hesitate to grab it. I don't think anyone short of a pro racer actually needs such a nice bike. But I'm pretty confident I'd get more enjoyment per dollar out of this gem than some of the sub-$800 bikes I've had. Alas, it's still too much for me at this time.

PeteHski

Whenever I see a deal like that, it's always some freakish frame size, like XXXS or XXXL. Midgets and giants get the best deals on bikes, lol.

urbanknight

Yes, I started looking at their site almost a year ago. Picked out a few potential models but wasn't keen on the price. As soon as they had my email address, they started sending me coupons. I took the bait when there was a $200 off coupon for any bike. A month after that, they ran a $250 off coupon. It seems like they're almost always having some sort of sale. Makes me wonder if the coupon trick works on getting some people to pay full price, or if it hinders them by scaring away potential customers like the savvy people here on BF.

CliffordK

That is pretty extraordinary rubbing on the crank.


Also rubbing on the top tube.



I've had rubbing wear from my toe clip strap, but that looks more like the heel rubbing which I don't think I've experienced.

Was it ridden with flat pedals and street shoes?

That is mighty expensive for a 105 equipped bike.

Troul 

wonder if the bar tape was replaced to hide a possible "dragging on its side going down the street" mishap.

himespau 

Poor mounting on a car rack leading to a lot of rubbing?

tomato coupe

There's the rub - it looks like new bikes in that size are only available for pick up in a handful of shops in Florida and California.

PeteHski

Yeah, it's nearly always frame size availability that squashes the best deals. I've seen a number of great deals, but nearly always out of stock in regular sizes i.e. M or L

PeteHski

Heel rubbing is quite common if you naturally ride with your feet slightly toed-out. The solution is longer pedal spindles and/or moving your cleats more inboard on the shoe. I use Shimano +4 mm road pedals to avoid heel rubbing. I don't ride with much toe-out. It doesn't take much to cause rubbing on road cranks. Whoever rode this bike must have been scraping his heels like crazy. That would have driven me nuts!

njkayaker

There is no magic here that precludes a mistake being made. People make errors all the time. It's possible for them to be wrong about the "value" too.