Disc brakes on high end road bikes. Brunyeel says it's time. He is correct.
07-14-11, 01:34 PM
#126
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There's an old adage in all forms of racing...want to go faster? Get better brakes.
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07-14-11, 01:35 PM
#127
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and expect immediate similar response as soon as UCI approves for 'road'
sky is not falling
... and clipless pedals are dangerous, heavy, unnecessary, not as good, ... (same comments/scenario from bikies back in the 70's...)
and CF will never hold up...
and helmets are too heavy, hot, uncomfortable...
and clinchers are too heavy, not fast enough, harsh...
and TWO water bottle mounts? who needs them ???
disks, I can't wait...
BTW, nicely done on those disk bikes...
07-14-11, 01:43 PM
#128
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Straight from Monterrey
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07-14-11, 01:50 PM
#129
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I'm certainly not an expert but wouldn't disc brakes put a lot more stress on the spokes?
With rim brakes you are slowing the speed of the rim. This is directly countering the forces of the wheel/road wanting to continue rotating forward.
With disc brake it appears you are slowing the speed of the hub. The wheel's outer parts will still want to continue rotating. The connecting parts (spokes) are the pieces that transfer the force of the brakes between the hub and the rims.
Imagine a scenario where at 20mph you grab the brakes with full force.
1) With rim brakes the rim is grabbed and stops rotating. The hub stops rotating because the rim stops.
2) With disc brakes the disc is grabbed and the hub stops rotating. The rim/tire that is contacting the road would want to keep rotating due to inertia/friction on the tires around the stopped hub causing load/force on the spokes.
With rim brakes you are slowing the speed of the rim. This is directly countering the forces of the wheel/road wanting to continue rotating forward.
With disc brake it appears you are slowing the speed of the hub. The wheel's outer parts will still want to continue rotating. The connecting parts (spokes) are the pieces that transfer the force of the brakes between the hub and the rims.
Imagine a scenario where at 20mph you grab the brakes with full force.
1) With rim brakes the rim is grabbed and stops rotating. The hub stops rotating because the rim stops.
2) With disc brakes the disc is grabbed and the hub stops rotating. The rim/tire that is contacting the road would want to keep rotating due to inertia/friction on the tires around the stopped hub causing load/force on the spokes.
07-14-11, 01:57 PM
#130
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Also, in almost all forms of racing, when the conditions are slick, they don't add stopping power, they add grip (ie, grooved tires). Improved braking on slick tires on a bike will likely cause more crashes.
*crystal ball* Riders dropping back to the team car to switch to rain tires, then back to slicks as conditions change. *crystal ball*
07-14-11, 02:05 PM
#131
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Yes, they do, 32 spoke 3X is the minimum recommended for disc brake applications, and spoke arrangement is specific also. The recommendation covers a broad range of uses. Although I've seen non-recommended wheel builds survive. I followed widely recognized build recommendations and then some.
07-14-11, 02:12 PM
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More stuff on the here & now product, on a not-so-high-end bike. After installation (per user manual instructions) plus bed in, and lifting the bike or one wheel, adjustment for the Avid BB7 goes something like this. To straighten a rotor if needed, use parallel smooth jaw pliers to bend the rotor in the desired direction. To decrease pad gap, turn the rear (toward spokes) red knob one click at a time, and rotate the wheel until pad contact is made, then back off one turn, followed by the same procedure with the knob on the front (facing you) of the caliper. For the rear shown below, rotate the wheel clockwise in concert with a crank arm, to avoid interfering noise from the freewheeling mechanism, while listening for pad/rotor rub. If one possesses the coordination to walk and chew gum at the same time, one is capable of performing this two handed task.
The front is simpler, because the wheel can go in either direction, and a second hand is not required.
Depending on pad material, the adjustment interval is not any longer than what is usually needed for center pivot rim brake maintenance. I expend more effort centering a rim brake caliper than adjusting disc pad clearance. The BB5 is a bit different because the caliper has to be loosened and re-tightened to adjust for wear of the fixed pad.
The fact pad adjustment is a non-issue for me does not diminish the value of perceived anguish others experience with mechanical disc brakes. I only want the non-experienced readers to get an idea of what is involved in mechanical disc brake maintenance. I've read recommendations for cleaning the rotor, I would add that degreasing the rotor is only necessary when contaminated with lube of some kind, or pad de-glazing is performed along with rotor resurfacing, or new pads with different pad compound. If rotors are muddy, they can be wiped with a clean, dry rag. One of the reasons bed-in improves performance is because pad material is transferred to the rotor, that's a good thing to be retained.
My not-so-high-end road bike with BB7 disc brakes.
The front is simpler, because the wheel can go in either direction, and a second hand is not required.
Depending on pad material, the adjustment interval is not any longer than what is usually needed for center pivot rim brake maintenance. I expend more effort centering a rim brake caliper than adjusting disc pad clearance. The BB5 is a bit different because the caliper has to be loosened and re-tightened to adjust for wear of the fixed pad.
The fact pad adjustment is a non-issue for me does not diminish the value of perceived anguish others experience with mechanical disc brakes. I only want the non-experienced readers to get an idea of what is involved in mechanical disc brake maintenance. I've read recommendations for cleaning the rotor, I would add that degreasing the rotor is only necessary when contaminated with lube of some kind, or pad de-glazing is performed along with rotor resurfacing, or new pads with different pad compound. If rotors are muddy, they can be wiped with a clean, dry rag. One of the reasons bed-in improves performance is because pad material is transferred to the rotor, that's a good thing to be retained.
My not-so-high-end road bike with BB7 disc brakes.
07-14-11, 02:17 PM
#134
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While I don't disagree with this statement, I don't think it applies to the original complaint. Riders aren't crashing because they can't slow down quick enough.
Also, in almost all forms of racing, when the conditions are slick, they don't add stopping power, they add grip (ie, grooved tires). Improved braking on slick tires on a bike will likely cause more crashes.
*crystal ball* Riders dropping back to the team car to switch to rain tires, then back to slicks as conditions change. *crystal ball*
Also, in almost all forms of racing, when the conditions are slick, they don't add stopping power, they add grip (ie, grooved tires). Improved braking on slick tires on a bike will likely cause more crashes.
*crystal ball* Riders dropping back to the team car to switch to rain tires, then back to slicks as conditions change. *crystal ball*
clean is the operative. as soon as you allow motorized vehicles on it, the surface picks up all sorts of chemical crappage, which further reduces traction.
23-25 mm tires has small contact patches so, 'tread' or slick is really a non-issue, rubber compound has more effect.
a story - back when hi-performance clinchers were making the scene, the general concept was as narrow a profile/patch as possible for speed (soon disproven). Anyone remember those 21mm clinchers with that raised center rib? awful stuff...
disks should allow rim and tire design to again open up further for improvements in sidewall/profile construction and rim design, further opportunities for tubeless improvements...
hubs and spokes? I'm sure the Brainiacs are already luving the engineerin vibes...
if you love and appreciate wheels, this might be like going to mp3 from cassette...
07-14-11, 02:21 PM
#135
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That was exactly the reason why Buell Motorcycles went with the perimeter braking system. Their current sportbike has the lightest wheel/braking system in the industry.
07-14-11, 02:26 PM
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I'm sure that eventually somebody will put a set of mechanical disc brakes on their race bike and then everyone will jump in. It's not really an IF but WHEN. I have no doubt it's in the next big thing 2nd only to electronic shifting.
07-14-11, 02:37 PM
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+1 - Monterey rollout has some new stuff comin...
and expect immediate similar response as soon as UCI approves for 'road'
sky is not falling
... and clipless pedals are dangerous, heavy, unnecessary, not as good, ... (same comments/scenario from bikies back in the 70's...)
and CF will never hold up...
and helmets are too heavy, hot, uncomfortable...
and clinchers are too heavy, not fast enough, harsh...
and TWO water bottle mounts? who needs them ???
disks, I can't wait...
BTW, nicely done on those disk bikes...
and expect immediate similar response as soon as UCI approves for 'road'
sky is not falling
... and clipless pedals are dangerous, heavy, unnecessary, not as good, ... (same comments/scenario from bikies back in the 70's...)
and CF will never hold up...
and helmets are too heavy, hot, uncomfortable...
and clinchers are too heavy, not fast enough, harsh...
and TWO water bottle mounts? who needs them ???
disks, I can't wait...
BTW, nicely done on those disk bikes...
07-14-11, 02:41 PM
#139
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A similar version is in production with sweet post mounts.
07-14-11, 02:50 PM
#140
Descends like a rock
I think ya'll are missing the one thing that will likely drive this more than any other - more profit for Specialized, Trek, etc... Gotta get everyone riding on the latest technology. You don't want to be the last dinosaur on the club rides still running rim brakes do you?
07-14-11, 03:02 PM
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I was sporting a LeMond Poprad with mechanical discs what? 3 years ago?! I used it for winter riding and wet weather riding. There was a guy on the forum here that had one too and he had it down to crazy light considering it was a steel frame. He even had carbon hoops built up for it. Cannondale had a disc model too.
You don't need dang hydro discs for the road. I had PLENTY of stopping power with the avid road mechanical disc. PLENTY. MORE power than road calipers. The ONLY reason I sold that frame is that is was honestly 1 size too big. it was a gorgeous bike. I bought it as a module and I put Centaur 10 speed shifters on it, Centaur crank, Dura Ace FD, Sram Rival RD and Ultegra cassette. It was awesome.
The only question I have is how much durability are the pads going to have going down mountain descents? I ran that bike for a solid year on the original pads but then again a group ride in my area vs a mountain descent are two different things.
Avid BB7 road discs are seriously all you need. Anything else is just for weight savings and that Tektro adapter only adds weight.
You don't need dang hydro discs for the road. I had PLENTY of stopping power with the avid road mechanical disc. PLENTY. MORE power than road calipers. The ONLY reason I sold that frame is that is was honestly 1 size too big. it was a gorgeous bike. I bought it as a module and I put Centaur 10 speed shifters on it, Centaur crank, Dura Ace FD, Sram Rival RD and Ultegra cassette. It was awesome.
The only question I have is how much durability are the pads going to have going down mountain descents? I ran that bike for a solid year on the original pads but then again a group ride in my area vs a mountain descent are two different things.
Avid BB7 road discs are seriously all you need. Anything else is just for weight savings and that Tektro adapter only adds weight.
Disc brakes are well on their way for the road - get used to it.
UCI changed the rule last year....not this year. Frames have been in production and prototypes have been spotted. I have been working over the Specialized rep hard for a Crux disc. He said he would have delivery details in August. Working with him and this to develop cross specific product offerings.
Tektro has a hydraulic resevoir/master cylinder that works with cables and actuation ratios from road to allow for use of hydraulic discs with road levers.
This was one of the main questions I was asking all OEM's at Interbike last year. They were all over it already. I expect this year will be roll-out of a lot of disc gear.
For those that don't know - high end road is the smallest part of the real market for cycling. Cross's popularity has mandated the need for the design of the product. The plethora of commuters and city/trail bikes will carry the product development to the masses. Road will be the last group standing without disc, but it is a matter of time.
As for group rides.....guys.....seriously....whether you like it or not people DO actually ride their bikes once or twice before getting into a group ride. Disc brakes WON'T affect that. If I grab a handful of brake lever now I can lock up both wheels solid. How are disc brakes going to all of a sudden make newbs act differently? Besides...if this is your worry then find a better group to ride with or make your own.
UCI changed the rule last year....not this year. Frames have been in production and prototypes have been spotted. I have been working over the Specialized rep hard for a Crux disc. He said he would have delivery details in August. Working with him and this to develop cross specific product offerings.
Tektro has a hydraulic resevoir/master cylinder that works with cables and actuation ratios from road to allow for use of hydraulic discs with road levers.
This was one of the main questions I was asking all OEM's at Interbike last year. They were all over it already. I expect this year will be roll-out of a lot of disc gear.
For those that don't know - high end road is the smallest part of the real market for cycling. Cross's popularity has mandated the need for the design of the product. The plethora of commuters and city/trail bikes will carry the product development to the masses. Road will be the last group standing without disc, but it is a matter of time.
As for group rides.....guys.....seriously....whether you like it or not people DO actually ride their bikes once or twice before getting into a group ride. Disc brakes WON'T affect that. If I grab a handful of brake lever now I can lock up both wheels solid. How are disc brakes going to all of a sudden make newbs act differently? Besides...if this is your worry then find a better group to ride with or make your own.
07-14-11, 03:05 PM
#142
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https://www.landsharkbicycles.com/Gal...eipheimer.html
from a couple of years ago.
from a couple of years ago.
J. Brunyeel of Team Radio Shack said recently that with lighter equipment and higher speeds, it's time for disc brakes on road bikes, and that better braking might reduce the crashes in pro racing. He may have a point. Racing bikes have minimal traction to begin with (tiny tire contact patch), rim brakes on carbon braking surfaces only exacerbate things. Disc brakes are exponentially better on wet roads too.
I'm sure the wizards of Shimano and Sram can come up with a disc braking set up that only adds 200 grams to a modern racing bike. Well worth the weight penalty in my view.
I go back and forth between my racing bicycles and my 700 lb motorcycle with disc brakes front and rear. The motorcycle stops on a dime from speeds of 30-50 mph. There's no such thing as a panic stop on a racing bicycle at those speeds. If that situation arises, you are mostly going to crash. I do think disc brakes would improve your odds in those circumstances.
I'm sure the wizards of Shimano and Sram can come up with a disc braking set up that only adds 200 grams to a modern racing bike. Well worth the weight penalty in my view.
I go back and forth between my racing bicycles and my 700 lb motorcycle with disc brakes front and rear. The motorcycle stops on a dime from speeds of 30-50 mph. There's no such thing as a panic stop on a racing bicycle at those speeds. If that situation arises, you are mostly going to crash. I do think disc brakes would improve your odds in those circumstances.
07-14-11, 03:20 PM
#143
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Hard ceramic pad compounds are long lasting. If you add moisture in the mountain mix then a compound with some metallic constituent will be needed. There are a variety of pad compounds available.
07-14-11, 03:42 PM
#144
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I was sporting a LeMond Poprad with mechanical discs what? 3 years ago?! I used it for winter riding and wet weather riding. There was a guy on the forum here that had one too and he had it down to crazy light considering it was a steel frame. He even had carbon hoops built up for it. Cannondale had a disc model too.
You don't need dang hydro discs for the road. I had PLENTY of stopping power with the avid road mechanical disc. PLENTY. MORE power than road calipers. The ONLY reason I sold that frame is that is was honestly 1 size too big. it was a gorgeous bike. I bought it as a module and I put Centaur 10 speed shifters on it, Centaur crank, Dura Ace FD, Sram Rival RD and Ultegra cassette. It was awesome.
The only question I have is how much durability are the pads going to have going down mountain descents? I ran that bike for a solid year on the original pads but then again a group ride in my area vs a mountain descent are two different things.
Avid BB7 road discs are seriously all you need. Anything else is just for weight savings and that Tektro adapter only adds weight.
You don't need dang hydro discs for the road. I had PLENTY of stopping power with the avid road mechanical disc. PLENTY. MORE power than road calipers. The ONLY reason I sold that frame is that is was honestly 1 size too big. it was a gorgeous bike. I bought it as a module and I put Centaur 10 speed shifters on it, Centaur crank, Dura Ace FD, Sram Rival RD and Ultegra cassette. It was awesome.
The only question I have is how much durability are the pads going to have going down mountain descents? I ran that bike for a solid year on the original pads but then again a group ride in my area vs a mountain descent are two different things.
Avid BB7 road discs are seriously all you need. Anything else is just for weight savings and that Tektro adapter only adds weight.
Yup - got a guy on the team that has been racing a Canondale cross bike with Avid mechanical discs for a few years. I have always been a little jealous.
I have BB7's in my "cart" at one of my distributors. Asking a Hub OEM if they'd do a24/28 drilling for me on disc hub.....
Should be fine for cross. Remember - I'm really just looking at cross applications currently.
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07-14-11, 03:50 PM
#145
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Comparing a road bike's braking situation to a cross bike's situation seems to be unfair. Cyclocross bikes would be helped greatly by disk brakes because of the distance the mud and grime would have to travel to get into the braking surfaces, disks have a distinct advantage in this regard. Doesn't make logical sense with a road bike.
When and if disks become commonplace on roadbikes, I hope they are better than the set on my mountain bike. Dang things are constantly rubbing, the sound gets extremely annoying.
When and if disks become commonplace on roadbikes, I hope they are better than the set on my mountain bike. Dang things are constantly rubbing, the sound gets extremely annoying.
07-14-11, 03:52 PM
#146
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Yup - got a guy on the team that has been racing a Canondale cross bike with Avid mechanical discs for a few years. I have always been a little jealous.
I have BB7's in my "cart" at one of my distributors. Asking a Hub OEM if they'd do a24/28 drilling for me on disc hub..... Should be fine for cross.
Remember - I'm really just looking at cross applications currently.
I have BB7's in my "cart" at one of my distributors. Asking a Hub OEM if they'd do a24/28 drilling for me on disc hub.....
Should be fine for cross. Remember - I'm really just looking at cross applications currently.
I don't follow cross equipment much, but was gonna get an '11 roubaix to replace the older one I have, until I heard about the Spec Crux disk bikes - 135 rear ?... now I'll wait until a CF version hits - that pic from Monterey was ALU ???
... cross frame specs are fine and dandy for a general roadie for me...
07-14-11, 03:57 PM
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It should be good. The only downside of the Poprad was the 130mm spacing but disc hubs can be found for 130mm if people look hard enough.
I hope the Crux disc frame is 135mm.
I raced Cantis last year and probably will this year too. There was one poprad disc, one cannondale disc and one Salsa disc cross bike in the series last year.
I hope the Crux disc frame is 135mm.
I raced Cantis last year and probably will this year too. There was one poprad disc, one cannondale disc and one Salsa disc cross bike in the series last year.
Yup - got a guy on the team that has been racing a Canondale cross bike with Avid mechanical discs for a few years. I have always been a little jealous.
I have BB7's in my "cart" at one of my distributors. Asking a Hub OEM if they'd do a24/28 drilling for me on disc hub..... Should be fine for cross.
Remember - I'm really just looking at cross applications currently.
I have BB7's in my "cart" at one of my distributors. Asking a Hub OEM if they'd do a24/28 drilling for me on disc hub.....
Should be fine for cross. Remember - I'm really just looking at cross applications currently.
07-14-11, 03:58 PM
#148
Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped.
After truing and alignment, none of my three disc-equipped bikes had that problem. No harder than any other brakes (honestly, it's almost easier...).
07-14-11, 03:59 PM
#149
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I know there was talk as to a 'standard' for cross/disk hub width, 135 - 130. You have anything on that...?
I don't follow cross equipment much, but was gonna get an '11 roubaix to replace the older one I have, until I heard about the Spec Crux disk bikes - 135 rear ?... now I'll wait until a CF version hits - that pic from Monterey was ALU ???
... cross frame specs are fine and dandy for a general roadie for me...
I don't follow cross equipment much, but was gonna get an '11 roubaix to replace the older one I have, until I heard about the Spec Crux disk bikes - 135 rear ?... now I'll wait until a CF version hits - that pic from Monterey was ALU ???
... cross frame specs are fine and dandy for a general roadie for me...
Yup...talk has been 135 from everyone that has one out. There is simply too much product available out there right now for 135. Poprads were 130. Sucks to be them. The Crux(s) are 135. That pic was aluminum - yes.
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07-14-11, 04:23 PM
#150
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I had a poprad and sold it because of the the 130mm spacing. Just not enough available for that. I use a front disc with a rear canti on my cross/commuter. It's awesome. If I could have found a cheap cross frame with a rear disc adapter I would be on that.