MooneyBloke

https://www.cyclingtips.com/2018/02/...r-letter-word/

I'll openly confess that I ride as much for general fitness as anything else, and I think it's helping fight the ravages of age. That being said, I have no need for the nerd machismo that seems to permeate modern mainstream cycling. It just doesn't seem as sane as it did when I started. There were the big pannier tourists, the sport tour day trippers. Even the roadies seemed to have a less formal stance even if their goal was to win races. I think this gamified, quantified, optimized life thing isn't much of a life I want to live. Even riding fine road bikes has much more to offer than that.

79pmooney

My Mooney - you simply cannot stuff it into a niche. Came out of the womb with a front end inspired by my pure race Fuji Professional that Peter had seen me on many times and that fit like a dream.. Chainstays long enough for pannier clearance. Ability to take big tires and fenders. Cantis set midway between 700c and 27". Horizontal dropouts simply so I could go fix gear if I ever wanted.

And it has done fast club rides, some very long days, toured, graveled, been a farmer's market bike with panniers front and rear and in 2017, got it set up fix gear to ride Cycle Oregon to Crater Lake including a few thousand feet up and down on gravel. Set the bike up with 38c front, 35c rear for the gravel days. Three very different gears, all fixed for the mountains. Rode a crazy ride across the Oregon coast range on it in prep. Sadly fires and smoke canceled Cycle Oregon that year. But the Mooney rolls on fixed, now on tubulars again like it started.

That bike is the complete antithesis of the modern specialist. I do have two rather specialized bikes. A Pro Miyata - early '80s pure race. Dream fit. It will never go out in bad weather, wear fenders, be burdened with racks ... Yes, a prima donna. Like I used to race only newer and better. And Jessica J, my ti custom fix gear. Race fit and ride. Ability to run a full range of cogs with no chain length changes. So maybe what we might be racing today if - gears had never been invented and racing rules dictated velodrome-worthy drivetrains. Nutted rear hubs. Stop to change gears by flipping the wheel or unscrewing the cog. Like 120 years ago.

And like you, I don't race. Yes I did. Loved it. Loved being in that shape! Still love it when I get close. And will probably always love putting one of those bikes between my legs. But it doesn't have to be CF, It doesn't have to weight 16 pounds. A 20 pound steel bike that is pure go works just fine. And bikes that are more diversified that likewise disappear under me are also a joy.

MooneyBloke

Sounds like you honored Peter's bike well. Mine are both traditional road bikes based off his stage race geometry. They're as fast as my legs and lungs (sadly this means not very at the moment). I've raced other bikes, and the last time I licensed I just did TTs on the ugly Billato/Marin. I'll certainly give Peter's bikes as good a run as I can, but they won't ever see a mass start. I don't think I shame them though. The grocery/beer bike is my 1980 Frek... err... Trek 510 three speed. I'll jam on that too unless I'm toast.

BTW: Peter's bikes don't go out intentionally in bad weather, but sometimes it finds me nonetheless. I remember one quick summer 20 mile jaunt where the first five miles were fine, but then the rain came down in sheets. Got to overhaul all my bearings that night. Bleah! I was surprised my phone still worked.

79pmooney

My Mooney was conceived as my link to sanity for the seven years a dear friend had warned me were the curse of life changing near-death medical events. She was right. Those years were that hard. So the essential design criteria could be summed in the simple - rideable in the lower 48 states 12 months of the years. One of its early rides was down Alba Road above Santa Cruz. 2000' in 4 miles. In a January Pacific storm. Inch deep rivers running across the road. Braking near full time just to make the next tight turn. The Mooney was my ride again a few years later when I went out for a fall time change ride around Seattle's Lake Washington. Got caught in the hardest rain I have ever ridden. No cars, no people, no animals. Just me. I joked the frogs were seeking shelter. Rained so hard bike was clean as a whistle when I got home.

Bad Lag

"Every industry person I’ve spoken to has confirmed (usually off the record) that traditional road cycling is in sharp decline,..."

Interesting point, I didn't know that but when I think about others on the road with me, I guess it's true.


P.S. - For some reason, I cannot see any of the pictures, even if I try to open them in a new tab. Is this a web site limitation? I do not use MS.

MooneyBloke

I noticed that too. I still thought the words were worth the visit.

Wildwood 

no need for nerd machismo
doesn't seem as sane as it did when I started
isn't much of a life I want to live



get off my lawn.


Even if I agree with you, it sounds like elder whine. Antidote = elderberry wine.
What Is Elderberry Wine? (thespruceeats.com)

Fifty+ Forum has a 65+ sticky = just sayin.....


edit: Having now read the Outside opinion piece (link now works for me), I guess I just have to disagree with the author's premise of current road cycling marketing trends:
Suffer Race Win Endure Train HTFU
Upon reviewing Trek, Spesh, and a couple of other websites the marketing seems to emphasize how their top road framesets make it easier to go faster. Nobody uses the author's words. Surely I missed some company's pitch but road cycling has always been about riding 'fast'. With fat soft tires, integrated suspension, thru axles, disc brakes - the emphasis seems to me to be focused on comfortable, safer cycling.

Maybe the self-confessed 'angry Asian' author rides with an incompatible crowd, or maybe he has aged - and vents his frustration in the time honored tradition of criticizing those who don't ride as he does. Humorous drivel, at best.

ManekiNico

It's a five year old article. The CyclingTips website has gone through a few redesigns and one change of ownership since it was posted. I'm surprised the article is still accessible, frankly.

MooneyBloke

Look, I do not reject change out of hand, so stuff the age-ist garbage. If you do not see a narrowing of what the industry promotes as legitimate bicycles and bicycling, then you are simply not looking.

BTW: what is the alternative to getting old? Dying! Think about it.

I think it is a severe mistake to attribute the criticisms of older people merely to being stuck in the mud. Here's an example: I feel there's a lot more gratuitous rudeness on the road than there has been in the past. Have I dealt with rudeness in the past? Of course. On my last ride this past Friday, I had two pickups "roll coal" on me, and I had an SUV driver who wanted to fight me just because I had the audacity to ask what was his difficulty when he passed me while leaning on his horn. That's three assaults in one ride, and that's unprecedented for my over forty years riding road. This is not a get off my lawn thing, it's quite real.

The message I get from the industry boffins is:

1) if you don't care about every watt, you're out of date.

2) if you aren't concerned about Strava KOMs, you're out of date.

3) If you don't desire every new thing industry promotes, no matter how ugly or ill-conceived, you're out of date.

4) If you have a problem with bikes costing five figures, you're out of date.

5) If you care about ease of service or even (perish the thought) cross-vendor compatibility, you're out of date.

I don't think these are a necessary part of cycling, and I don't think it's merely my age, but my having some broad experience bicycling that speaks here.

MooneyBloke

I found it from a link given at the author's twitter feed that showed up on a google search about the politics of fear and SUVs.

MooneyBloke

BTW: I think it was slightly over twenty years ago that I received a Colorado Cyclist catalog in the mail. I had two excellent custom bikes, and CC had absolutely nothing I wanted. I was truly satisfied. I still am, but I get annoyed at those suggesting I'm just not with it and should just get with the program.

I will confess to wanting to bump up my stash of spare sew-ups as that's getting a little thin for my liking.

tombc

OP were you about to spend money in the bicycle industry? If not, why would you expect them to cater to you? Wouldn't it actually be more strange if they did?

Wildwood 

I see an industry with more types of bikes and more accessory choices to fit everyone's style of riding, and from a greater number of producers. And I just bought a new bike so I was definitely looking.
If you measure watts, seek KOMs, value low rolling resistance, etc the bikes and accessories are out there. If you seek comfort on the road, it's out there. Personally, I read more from bicycle producers to branch out and vary my riding with the new models.

I'm a roadie without Garmin or Strava, without a suspension frame or stem, who still rides tubulars on many and friction shifting is 1/2 my collection. My motto is: clear your handlebars and your mind will follow. The folks I ride with similarly ignore marketing hype. Maybe our age-ism has insulated us from the fringe influence of industry boffins who train athletes to win races - and all those with such mental aspirations.

It's a big cycling Universe, embrace it all - or pick your niche. Some boffin has a new product to market to us. Now, more than ever. Consumer capitalism thrives.

edit: Time to ride to a LBS for a bike fit session. Hopefully, I will have found a boffin who can he make me faster thru efficiency with less Endure. That would make me smile.

Bad Lag

I'm going to do a double-take on my earlier post.

Quoting that article, again, "Every industry person I’ve spoken to has confirmed (usually off the record) that traditional road cycling is in sharp decline,..."

Well, DUH!

The "industry" is offering 5 figure road bikes. It is no small wonder people are not interested in "traditional road cycling" if they have buy those expensive racing bikes and have been conditioned to dress and ride like racers to justify the expense.

Most people I know are low fitness level and are overweight. A lot of those people are buying and riding e-bikes (big bucks, too), if they go for a ride at all. Soft tires, upright riding position, and power-assist are a perfect match to their life styles.

"Traditional road cycling" (whatever that is) is in steep decline",... pfft! One might think it is the industry plan, no?

tgot 

Anecdote: I was talking to a friend; fit, 50s, lifelong runner and lifter. He has a new girlfriend, fit, triathlete. She suggested he get a road bike so that they could ride together sometimes. He wandered into a bike store, and came out with the firm impression that $1500 entry level road bikes would need upgrades or replacement quickly, and that $2500 was a better starting budget.

That's a pretty substantial barrier to entry, in terms of people getting into bicycling!

georges1

I kinda agree, the price of road bikes have gotten crazy the last two decades. Other solution is to buy a high end steel frame on the second hand market and then reequip it with modern componentry.At 2500$ ,in terms of modern bikes, you find nothing exceptional or high end regarding quality. Yes, cost is an issue.

seypat

The article is spot on, and not just for cycling. I call it the professionalism of amateur sports. Ones's self image shouldn't be tied to sports results/performance. That's an empty and dissappointing life. Once a person gets old enough that their skills/performance are in decline, they can enjoy simply being out there still doing it. If you do that, you'll keep at it instead of hanging it up and retreating to the couch. That's a lot healthier in the long run.

smd4

People have been writing about the decline of road cycling since at least the early 1990s, and maybe earlier.

Wildwood 

I was talking to a friend..... no details means nobody knows what your friend said to the bike store employee. If he said, "I must have a bike to keep up with an experienced cyclist, so as to save face", they might have bumped his starting point. Just sayin.

Moral of your story = know something about what you are going to buy before you walk-in uninformed to buy it. Pretty basic.

I want to buy this house, haven't done any research, but the price is too high - and the owners are to blame for denying me what I think I should be able to afford.

This is C&V, for $500 or much less he could be riding next to her on a nice bike. But it would not be new or have a 12 spd cassette.

Bad Lag

The fact that it was not new is a huge barrier to many.

That it needed maintenance before being ridden is another huge barrier to many.

Heck, even when the new bike needs adjustments and lube becomes a huge barrier to many.

I am dropping from this thread. It is too negative and I don't need that. I think I'll just go for a ride on my 50 year old bike, instead.



To get oriented to modern bike prices, I went "window shopping".
REI's least expensive drop bar bike is $900, the most expensive is $4700.
Bicycle Warehouse went from $4,500 to $11,200.
Cannondale offerings range from $996 to $15,000.
The above pricing does not include any Lycra, shoes or helmet.

bikingshearer 

Uh, I don't see where the OP is asking, much less expecting, that the bike industry cater to him. What he and the article are saying is that they think the bike industry's current marketing is ignoring a big chunk of people who might become bike purchasers (and by extension, component and clothing purchasers) because of the focus on the racing/suffering/high performance angle. You can agree or disagree with that position, but at least respond to what is actually said.

The OP's and article's message is similar to that of Grant Petersen and Rivendell - racing/high performance riding is not the only way to enjoy a bike. The corollary (and this is what so many people fail to recognize about Petersen's message) is not that racing bikes are bad, rather that racing bikes really aren't that great for the kind of riding many and perhaps most riders do. This is not saying "don't buy a racing bike" or "racing bikes are bad." It is saying "buy a bike that will give you what you want in a bike for the kind of riding you want to do." I am amazed at how that message (1) is so controversial and (2) gets so many people's knickers in a twist.

Okay, now that I mentioned Grant Petersen, will this thread reach ten pages?

tombc

OP is commenting that the industry does not appeal to him, a well informed enthusiast who thinks the bike they have is already better. No they are not going to try and sell this person a bike, it's a waste of breath, effort, money, whatever. That is what I meant by catering.

The bicycle industry does not try to sell performance road bikes to people just trying to dip their feet in anymore, that was years ago. Inexperienced sales staff might still do this though.

Nothing to be gained by arguing with each other here. Keeping up with the roadies is expensive, yes. But keeping up with the roadies is just a small part of what cycling is about. It's also cheap compared to riding mountain bikes. All of these activities are cheaper than a country club membership. Value is perceived.

John E

Better still, buy a decent older steel-framed road bike from the 1970s or later, clean it up and lube it, and skip the component updates. No need to spend kilobucks.

georges1

I agree on the frame but with components, I will not go back to 6 or 7 speeds. I have one bike that will get a campy 16 speed upgrade, the rest of thebikes will all be dura ace 20 speeds. I am not interested in 22 speeds or 24 speeds due to cable eating brifters 7900, 9000, 9100, 6700, 8000, 5700, 5800, 7000 or any campy ergopower.As for wheels, I mostly have Mavic but I don't mind Zipp or Hed or Roval

RiddleOfSteel

That's been my M.O. (along with so many here), but knowing that a good riding vintage bike that's affordable can be had by someone else, when I sell my bikes, they are good to go, having been thoroughly disassembled, cleaned, shined up, and bearings overhauled, consumables changed/replaced etc. There are no quirks or overly difficult brake lever action to discourage learning, enjoyment, or safety. Doing a complete vintage bike overhaul, as we know, takes time and often money (replacement of components, consumables). That's a lot of legwork for someone that just wants two wheels to ride right away, and thus a barrier to entry. Maybe they'll know that when they go looking for a used bike, maybe they won't. At least it's ready to go for them when I sell them one, and I am happy to make that "contribution"! I am glad there are bike shops out there that do similarly and offer those bikes for prices at or near enough the amount I do. That helps a lot of people out--most people just want to ride!

Modern groupsets, even more so with disc brake bikes, gets to be a runaway arms race if not kept in check. Even used modern groups. Lots of "paying to play" the go fast road or MTB game. I do love Di2 electronic shifting and the way the shifters look, even if literal firmware updates make a group temporarily inoperable until it is resolved. Sunk cost fallacy, anyone? [<----currently living this, but have happily built my '89 Paramount frame from DA 9000 to 2x7 6400 recently and am loving it--both are great in their own ways!]