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Training Status??? (IV)

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Training Status??? (IV)

Old 01-12-18, 10:25 AM
  #10751  
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Generally the higher my volume goes the less polarized my training becomes.

RE: sweet spot, if you do enough of it in a single workout it can feel a level of suck you can't really get with ftp. It's just like a different kind of "there is no sugar left in my muscles" type of burn.
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Old 01-12-18, 10:25 AM
  #10752  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Fitness on the continuum.

Start with the second, move to the first.

A lot of my winter workouts are sweetspot and threshold and start moving towards the higher intensities the closer to the race season (in general).

In real life, though, I like to hit a larger range of intensities than that year round, I just do it in different doses with the most high-intensity occurring during race season and the least at the start of winter.

That's basic periodization to a degree, general -> specific.
Thanks. Due to recovering from plantar fasciitis, ideal race would be in April/May so ideally start VO2MAX in March
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Old 01-12-18, 10:28 AM
  #10753  
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin View Post
Generally the higher my volume goes the less polarized my training becomes.

RE: sweet spot, if you do enough of it in a single workout it can feel a level of suck you can't really get with ftp. It's just like a different kind of "there is no sugar left in my muscles" type of burn.
True, I did 2x20 sweet spot and the beauty of it, is you can move around 90-98% ftp depending on how you feel.
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Old 01-12-18, 10:29 AM
  #10754  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post

LOL.. I Read that last week and was trying to avoid deciphering the information
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Old 01-12-18, 10:32 AM
  #10755  
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Originally Posted by jsk View Post
The whole point of SST is that it produces a lot of the same adaptations as training at threshold, but takes less recovery so you can do more of it. So SST + Threshold doesn't make a whole lot of sense except maybe for masochists training for TT's.

VO2Max and Anaerobic work hits different systems and produces different adaptations. So SST + VO2 makes more sense, just make sure you have some easy and/or recovery days in there. Doing 4-5 days of SST plus 1-2 of VO2 during a week sounds like a good way to burn out.
Great points. I take Wednesday, Friday & Sunday off.
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Old 01-12-18, 11:31 AM
  #10756  
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin View Post
Generally the higher my volume goes the less polarized my training becomes.

RE: sweet spot, if you do enough of it in a single workout it can feel a level of suck you can't really get with ftp. It's just like a different kind of "there is no sugar left in my muscles" type of burn.
Indeed. Start pushing that out to an hour(s) plus... Almost had a come-off-the-bike-and-curl-up-into-a-ditch bonk last winter after two hours of sweetspot. Can leave you feeling like a hollowed-out shell if you don't pay attention to nutrition.
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Old 01-12-18, 12:05 PM
  #10757  
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Do you guys think that sweet spot counts as part of the '80' in 80/20 polarized training? I'm thinking it's still a bit on the intermediate-intensity side. Coach has been doing a stronger polarization for me this season, and my longer days are more like low-middle z2, heart rate under 130, while my harder days have been variations on vo2max work.
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Old 01-12-18, 12:22 PM
  #10758  
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It's harder than it often feels, just not as hard as the stuff that feels worse.
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Old 01-12-18, 12:54 PM
  #10759  
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Originally Posted by wktmeow View Post
Do you guys think that sweet spot counts as part of the '80' in 80/20 polarized training? I'm thinking it's still a bit on the intermediate-intensity side. Coach has been doing a stronger polarization for me this season, and my longer days are more like low-middle z2, heart rate under 130, while my harder days have been variations on vo2max work.
No, don't think so. Sweetspot seems to be in the no-man's land of polarized training.

Which is part of why polarized doesn't work so well depending on your performance goals (and your volume).
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Old 01-12-18, 02:10 PM
  #10760  
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Fever broke on Wednesday at 100 which is high since I run 97 normal. Today is the first day I feel like riding won't be a detriment so I'll do an easy trainer session.

Force fed myself, took Emergen-C, Apple Cider Vinegar mixed with Cayenne Peppers and Unsweetened Cranberry Juice. So that worked, or it could have been the antibiotics.
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Old 01-12-18, 02:33 PM
  #10761  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
No, don't think so. Sweetspot seems to be in the no-man's land of polarized training.

Which is part of why polarized doesn't work so well depending on your performance goals (and your volume).


Seiler, and others who study POL training mention a ratio of 80/5/15 from time to time as well. Specifically its' mentioned in this paper; https://www.tradewindsports.net/wp-co...-polarized.pdf


I'm wondering if for that 5% you could use some Sweet Spot?


It's an intriguing idea (Polarized training) if for no other reason than its (apparent) simplicity. The above referenced paper had their study participants training under 10hr per week, which usually when you read about POL training it's usually upwards of 15-20 per week which is why a lot of people claim it won't work for average joes like us.
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Old 01-12-18, 03:27 PM
  #10762  
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Originally Posted by aplcr0331 View Post
Seiler, and others who study POL training mention a ratio of 80/5/15 from time to time as well. Specifically its' mentioned in this paper; https://www.tradewindsports.net/wp-co...-polarized.pdf


I'm wondering if for that 5% you could use some Sweet Spot?


It's an intriguing idea (Polarized training) if for no other reason than its (apparent) simplicity. The above referenced paper had their study participants training under 10hr per week, which usually when you read about POL training it's usually upwards of 15-20 per week which is why a lot of people claim it won't work for average joes like us.
I mean, you can do whatever you want. Keep in mind that 80/20 has to do with workouts, though, and not a specific amount of time or something.

But anyways, that's not why people claim it doesn't work.

It doesn't work (as well, and the very talented will improve off of anything) because it neglects a whole lot of workouts that build both general and specific cycling fitness. Take a look at that chart again and note the adaptions that take place specifically in that zone that he suggests staying away from.

At the end of the day, you can make things as simple or complicated as you want. Your body reacts to a stimulus and you keep changing that stimulus to keep the body adapting. There are many ways to do that, but cutting out a big middle chunk of intensity doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
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Old 01-12-18, 03:57 PM
  #10763  
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I think that what works best for me when doing FTP / vo2 building is to target realistic numbers for realistic amounts of time during a workout, and then make sure i'm recovered before doing the workout again. Historical data helps, but it usually that means I screw up the first couple of workouts in the block because I sorta need to calibrate to figure out what I can do with consistency. It also winds up being lower volume, with a much higher percentage of it being in zone. Like 2.5-3hrs out of 10-12hrs/wk was ftp+. Smash ****, recover, smash more **** repeat ad nauseum. Bought me a lot of watts this fall. I didn't look at it as getting x% of riding time in zone because then I'd make silly decisions based on ignoring how my legs feel to hit an arbitrary percentage number. I aimed for 3 solid workouts a week, would generally crack during one of them, and when I did crack I'd spin home and eat ice cream.

edit: also I do this crap in the fall because it can turn you into a one trick pony. But the higher ftp means you can do more work during base, which leads to more success if you do base right, etc...

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Old 01-12-18, 04:08 PM
  #10764  
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Originally Posted by ancker View Post
Have 2x15m @ 88% today. Meh.
Made it about 10 minutes into the second set and blew up mentally. Did a short cool down and called it a day.
Riding and training takes commitment and dedication, but it shouldn't be a chore. I need a short mental reset.
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Old 01-12-18, 04:12 PM
  #10765  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
I mean, you can do whatever you want. Keep in mind that 80/20 has to do with workouts, though, and not a specific amount of time or something.

But anyways, that's not why people claim it doesn't work.

It doesn't work (as well, and the very talented will improve off of anything) because it neglects a whole lot of workouts that build both general and specific cycling fitness. Take a look at that chart again and note the adaptions that take place specifically in that zone that he suggests staying away from.

At the end of the day, you can make things as simple or complicated as you want. Your body reacts to a stimulus and you keep changing that stimulus to keep the body adapting. There are many ways to do that, but cutting out a big middle chunk of intensity doesn't make a whole lot of sense.


I'm doing a traditional periodized plan right now through TrainerRoad. I'm new to training so probably more open minded than someone who has had great success with other methods. I get it.


80/20 is absolutely about time spent. The entire premise is that you spend 80% or your time doing low intensity and 20% of your time doing high intensity. You really have to dig deep into the research to even find their interval/workout descriptions. It's all based on time. Here's a video of a talk given by Dr. Seiler, he mentions time/length of training throughout.


Again, I'm doing it one way...probably just like you are(and most on here it seems). And this is reading more for my own curiosity and certainly not meant to insult any other training ideas. I am enjoying their theoretical research because it's interesting.


I will never amount to anything (cat 2 or cat 1 or win races, or have great results I'm pack fodder no matter what cat I'm in there's a certain calmness to being normal and average that I enjoy) so I'm probably more apt to look at different approaches because the stakes aren't as high for me personally.


Look at what chart? Seiler and Coggan are at odds with each other. Coggan's chart supports his training ideas, and Seiler uses other methods to support his training ideas.

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Old 01-12-18, 05:33 PM
  #10766  
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2 hours OUTSIDE today! Went for one strava segment. Wasn't close and then just rode around.Was good for the mind to ride my bike outside again.

Might be meeting a coworker for an easy spin tomorrow morning early. For the sake of cycling, hope it stays warm. For the sake of skiing, it needs to be much, much colder.
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Old 01-12-18, 05:38 PM
  #10767  
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Originally Posted by aplcr0331 View Post

80/20 is absolutely about time spent. The entire premise is that you spend 80% or your time doing low intensity and 20% of your time doing high intensity. .

No, it's not. It's workouts. So 8 easy workouts in ten.

Just think about it:

20 hours a week would equal 4 hours of high intensity training.

Even 10 hours a week would equal 2 hours of high intensity training.

That's impossible.

Edited to add:

From Seiler: https://www.sportsci.org/2009/ss.htm#_Toc245522385
In spite of differences in the methods for quantifying training intensity, all of the above studies show remarkable consistency in the training distribution pattern selected by successful endurance athletes. About 80 % of training sessions are performed completely or predominantly at intensities under the first ventilatory turn point, or a blood-lactate concentration �2mM. The remaining ~20 % of sessions are distributed between training at or near the traditional lactate threshold (Zone 2), and training at intensities in the 90-100 %VO2max range, generally as interval training (Zone 3). An elite athlete training 10-12 times per week is therefore likely to dedicate 1-3 sessions weekly to training at intensities at or above the maximum lactate steady state. This rule of thumb coincides well with training studies demonstrating the efficacy of adding two interval sessions per week to a training program (Billat et al., 1999; Lindsay et al., 1996; Weston et al., 1997). Seiler and Kjerland (2006) have previously gone so far as say that the optimal intensity distribution approximated a �polarized distribution� with 75-80 % of training sessions in Zone 1, 5 % in Zone 2, and 15-20 % in Zone 3. However, there is considerable variation in how athletes competing in different sports and event durations distribute their training intensity within Zones 2 and 3.
Sessions = workouts

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Old 01-12-18, 05:41 PM
  #10768  
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Originally Posted by aplcr0331 View Post
I'm doing a traditional periodized plan right now through TrainerRoad. I'm new to training so probably more open minded than someone who has had great success with other methods. I get it.
You call it open-minded. I just call it inexperienced.

Good to try different things, though. I just find it strange when people who haven't done much, or have only done one thing, argue voraciously for that one thing.

I've done polarized training myself and said as much previously when I didn't think it yielded very good results. My experience is certainly not one that's isolated to me.

And again, as I said above, talented people can do great with anything, as can inexperienced and people without extensive training backgrounds. If it's a new stimulus, your body will adapt. How long that stimulus causes adaptations is something that has to be addressed when you've been at it longer.

Originally Posted by aplcr0331 View Post
I'm doing a traditional periodized plan right now through TrainerRoad.
Traditional periodization is not polarized training. Periodization refers to a training methodology that moves from general fitness to specific fitness. Nothing to do with whether or not the training is polarized.

Last edited by rubiksoval; 01-12-18 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 01-12-18, 06:03 PM
  #10769  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
You call it open-minded. I just call it inexperienced.

Good to try different things, though. I just find it strange when people who haven't done much, or have only done one thing, argue voraciously for that one thing.

I've done polarized training myself and said as much previously when I didn't think it yielded very good results. My experience is certainly not one that's isolated to me.

And again, as I said above, talented people can do great with anything, as can inexperienced and people without extensive training backgrounds. If it's a new stimulus, your body will adapt. How long that stimulus causes adaptations is something that has to be addressed when you've been at it longer.



Traditional periodization is not polarized training. Periodization refers to a training methodology that moves from general fitness to specific fitness. Nothing to do with whether or not the training is polarized.
I'm certainly inexperienced, no argument there. Actually no argument at all on any of this. I guess I figured this was a conversation about "training" and it's associated information. Again, this is not a plan I'm following nor is it something that I put for as my own research. Even Seiler doesn't say this is the only way to train. I think you're right that people respond differently to different training stimulus. I thought this was an interesting approach. Nothing more.

Figured it was a conversation, I'm certainly not "voracious" in my presentation of what I'm reading about.


Take care.
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Old 01-12-18, 06:14 PM
  #10770  
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Originally Posted by aplcr0331 View Post
I'm certainly inexperienced, no argument there. Actually no argument at all on any of this. I guess I figured this was a conversation about "training" and it's associated information. Again, this is not a plan I'm following nor is it something that I put for as my own research. Even Seiler doesn't say this is the only way to train. I think you're right that people respond differently to different training stimulus. I thought this was an interesting approach. Nothing more.

Figured it was a conversation, I'm certainly not "voracious" in my presentation of what I'm reading about.


Take care.
I gotcha. Maybe I just read more into it when you suggested that you were more open-minded and more apt to look for different training approaches. I think I've spent nearly as much time looking at different approaches, reading about, discussing, and trying them as I've spent actually riding. And I still don't know half there is to know about any of it, except that everything has basically been done by someone at some point, and that there are many, many ways to get fitness.

Anyway, this was a big thing four years ago or so. Seems to have lost quite a bit of traction after that, though, or at least not as many people talking about it. Presumably because people started trying it more or analyzing it a bit more deeply.

Some additional (though anecdotal in large amounts) reading:

Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video : Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums
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Old 01-12-18, 06:17 PM
  #10771  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Indeed. Start pushing that out to an hour(s) plus... Almost had a come-off-the-bike-and-curl-up-into-a-ditch bonk last winter after two hours of sweetspot. Can leave you feeling like a hollowed-out shell if you don't pay attention to nutrition.
was that 2 hours straight?!?! - or broken into reps?
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Old 01-12-18, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin View Post
was that 2 hours straight?!?! - or broken into reps?
2 hours and 20 minutes straight, then I bonked horrifically.
https://www.strava.com/activities/82...lysis/802/9024

Made it to my goal 3 hours straight a week or so later when I forced myself to eat/drink every 20 minutes.

3 hours at 302w ~89% mFTP. Left me a bit wrecked for a while.
https://www.strava.com/activities/838280962
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Old 01-12-18, 06:24 PM
  #10773  
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89% for 3hrs is stern stuff. Nice!
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Old 01-12-18, 06:27 PM
  #10774  
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If you can do 3 hours at 89%, I would assume its set low.

Not that I'm questioning it, I've never came close to attempting something like that.
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Old 01-12-18, 06:29 PM
  #10775  
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I think it is doable, the real trick is figuring out how to keep yourself fueled properly; it's a lot of kj to dump in one go.
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