turbo1889

Okay, I don't use MUPs all that often based on several bad experiences where they are set-up as side-paths and are very dangerous at intersections with cross-streets. There is one of them that in my area that I do use and like because the road it runs in the same direction as it goes is pretty dangerous to try to bicycle on the road because it is a narrow windy high speed two lane that goes through hilly country were as the MUP is built on an old narrow gauge rail bed and is set off far enough from the main road that it doesn't create dangerous double intersections with the cross-streets and there are only two major cross streets for like 20 miles both of which have good well marked and signed intersections and its got much gentler grades then the main road.

But, there is still the "Anarchy" part of the equation that goes with MUPs where everyone just does whatever they want with very little if any consideration for others. Dog walkers with long leashes that stretch across the path, cyclists coming the other direction riding two or three abreast covering the whole path and "charging" you strong and hard with a look on their face that says "My Path !!! Get off the path and go around because this pace pack ain't signaling up !!!" Pedestrians that insist on taking up the whole path and deliberately try to block you and move to whichever side of the path you try to pass them on when you give verbal notice of your intent to pass and get crazy mad and scream at you if you pass them without giving notice even if you go slow while doing so and swing way wide on the very edge of the opposite side of the path.

I'm sure those of you who ride MUPs a lot know what I'm talking about ~ Total Chaos.

I personally would like to see the most basic level of civilization take root and a little bit of reasonable order and rhyme and reason on such MUPs. I understand I can't have the whole path to myself and at times I will have to be inconvenienced in order to show other users due respect and courtesy and I'm completely willing to accept that if maybe we could have some rather basic and common sense markings and signage for such paths, as it is currently no one, including me, has any kind of idea how these paths are supposed to actually work and multiple users in multiple modes are supposed to go about showing due courtesy and respect for each other and get around on them without having to deal with the ^@$^!$%&#&.

This is the best idea I have come up with for some fairly simple basics for both markings and signage to bring a little bit of civilization out of the chaos. Granted I'm more of a road user then a path user and that reflects in my proposals, especially this kind of simple but easily understood marking arrangement which almost anyone who hasn't been living under a rock should be able to understand:



Although none of the MUPs I've ever seen up here bear any kind of markings what-so-ever I have seen some pictures and videos posted both on this forum and else-where that shows set-ups with a solid white line dividing the MUP down the middle with pedestrians supposed to use the right side and bicyclists the left side with ped. and bicycle pavement marking accordingly. From my understanding people seem to just simply ignore these markings (and how do you handle two way traffic with that arrangement anyway?), possibly partially because they don't line up with any kind of familiar standard. Two way traffic each staying to the right side half of the path obviously has a very ubiquitous precedent and people might be more likely to "get it" if done that way.

As to signage to go with that, how about something alone these lines on each end of the path and a few scattered along its length in the middle:



Yes, I realize some could consider that offensive and treating MUP users as if they are simpletons who have to have the most basic concepts explained to them and then it made clear that it does really apply to them, but then one does have to realize the intended audience which from what I have seen even with a sign like that still might not "get it".




EDIT:

Part of that sign it is hard to see the detail on; here is a close up of those sections:

DX-MAN

It's sad that you HAVE to treat people like idiots when publishing rules/advisories/procedures/etc.; but if you DON'T, they claim they had no way of knowing, and it's not their fault they were idiots.

The deeper problem is that, even with things being published, they refuse to read and heed.

I encountered a long-leash walker once; a call-out fixed the issue, but I had to slow too much for them, IMO. Group walkers hogging the path were a problem a couple years ago, but it seems to have dissipated. There was a group of 4-6 middle-aged black men who would get out and. . .I guess "power walk", cuz they were STEPPIN'! A callout to them was all it took, but you had to time it right, otherwise their loud talk would drown you out. Worse has always been the 'mommy mobs', mothers still carrying the birth weight, pushing strollers, and walking the full width of the path like it was their driveway. I had to hit the grass to pass them....

Never saw the 'peloton' on our MUP; those guys tend to hit suburban and country roads and lay down the serious miles. But if they WOULD act like you describe, I'd play chicken with them...a Clyde on a Kona MTB may make them think twice.

softreset

We have a very high traffic MUP in Sacramento called the American River Trail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jededia...Memorial_Trail

It's 32 miles long and on a weekend mid-to-late morning during the summer it can be pretty congested in some parts. There's a huge range of people that use the trail and for the past several weeks (that I've been riding it), I've yet to encounter any inconsiderate people. I have no doubt that they exist, the trail is also infamous for sections of homeless assaulting riders/runners.

https://www.news10.net/news/article/2...an-River-trail

I've definitely seen some pretty shady looking transactions on the side of the road as well (if you're always looking over your shoulder when you hand something to someone, it's usually not legal).

Long story, short. There's a good time and bad time to ride on the MUP. If you're out for a serious bike ride then you need to be on the trail and done before 12:00 PM or you trek out after 5:30-6:00 PM and get your miles in before the sun goes down. For the most part the real serious riders (pace line, intervals, etc.) are usually on the street as the greater Sacramento area is very generous with the bike lanes.

My experience with rules or posted signs is that unless there's a risk of being caught and held accountable for your actions they're ineffective. Sure there will be that percentage that observe all posted signage but that's the same audience who are smart enough to not be violating the rules in the first place. Otherwise if there's no enforcement (speeding, reckless behavior, etc.) or failure to obey the signs will result in getting hurt, then most people will ignore the signs.

Burton

Its been done in Montreal. In the areas that are under the jusisdiction of Parks Cabada there is no enforcement and people just act like idiots. In areas where it IS enforced people just whine about how unfair it is to give tickets to cyclists.

Juha

The way it (supposedly) works around where I ride: pedestrians get to choose which side of the MUP they want to use, and cyclists should pass on whichever side is left free. Problem of course is, all pedestrians don't choose, and cyclists pass wherever they think they see a gap. Generally, staying on the right and passing on the left is a good idea in right hand traffic countries, and many people instinctively do that on a crowded MUP, regardless of their mode of transport. But they don't always pay enough attention to realise that MUP is getting crowded in the first place.

OP, you do realise that this is fundamentally the same discussion as road sharing between cyclists and motorized traffic? And the answer cyclists seem to prefer there is, "so what if you have to wait for a few seconds to pass safely?"

work4bike

I never ride on paths/MUPs. There are several reasons, not just the lawlessness, which is pretty bad. They just slow me down. I'll stick to the roads, I really don't see the issue and I ride on all types, including shoulderless, congested, high-speed roads.

I don't see the conditions changing on any MUP, only way to do that is for law enforcement officers to be present enforcing laws. That ain't goin' to happen.

Gallo

I have a mup or bike path I ride often. It is an artery to get me to the coast and a 20 mile loop that I ride for convenience for training rides I do not encounter problems often.

When I do I slow and say on your left and get a good response 99 out of 100

Certain times and certain areas I expect to see walkers. I ride cautiously through these areas. I have found the dog folks often the worst, I am very attentive when I see a dog either from in front or behind. I have had to stop a couple of times

If there is a group or single biker taking too much lane I call out rider up and problem solved. I have doubled back on a couple of folks and gave them my opinion of their riding style.

Once or twice out of thousands and thousands is not too bad. It might be that cyclist use the path so much that most of us understand the rules.

It is not biketopia but works rather well. I do not have the same experience of the OP

https://www.strava.com/activities/72215068

squirtdad

The Local MUPs i use have markings on the road for middle of path and have no pass marking with signs on a couple of blind corners....... and some signage about keep to right etc. 15 mph limit all ignored

the basic self centered/unaware behavior applies: gaggles of walkers taking the whole path, dogs on long leashes ready to dart, kids not closely supervised, cyclists going fast and passing when they shouldnt, people walking on the wrong side.

congestion varies based on time of day and weather.

turbo1889

My thoughts exactly (and the situation would be reversed for left hand drive countries around the world) which is why I propose that which I propose for markings and signage to at least remove the ignorance factor from the equation.

I absolutely agree that it is fundamentally the same discussion. Pedestrian walking speed usually averages 5-mph or so (actually walking speed averages slightly less but one does need to account for the "power walkers" and joggers as well) where as adult bicycle speed even for a total rank amateur is usually at least double that (10-mph) and for an experienced cyclist can often exceed 20-mph on the flat for at least a short distance. Experienced skate-boarders and roller-bladers will often reach 10-mph or more as well. The situation is not at all unlike bicyclists going 15-20 mph sharing the road with cars going 30-50 mph. It is just that the role position the bicyclist is playing is reversed and they are the faster traffic on a MUP.

So far I have yet to see an MUP that was so narrow it was only one pedestrian or one bicycle wide, most or at least double wide and often triple wide. Thus an MUP is comparable to a two lane road (either two lanes both in the same direction on a one way street or more commonly a two lane two direction road where passing involves waiting for a clear spot in oncoming traffic in order to pass). Just as cars have to wait to pass until the oncoming lane is clear and it is safe to do so bicyclists need to wait to pass slower traffic on an MUP until there is no oncoming traffic. But it is also true that just as bicycles aren't allowed to ride on a public two lane road two abreast one in each of the two lanes, both "taking the lane" so they block up the entire road including the oncoming lane so that the only way cars can safely pass is to drive off the road and "off road it" around the cyclists pedestrians (or any other traffic for that matter) shouldn't "Hog the Whole Path" on an MUP so that the only way anyone can get around them is to go completely off the path and "off road it" around them.

If cyclist were to ride on the road the way some people use (regardless of use mode) MUP paths motorists would be so screaming mad that there would be blood flowing in the streets literally. I don't have a problem waiting to pass on the left (or even the right) on an MUP because of oncoming traffic. I do have a very big problem with people managing to hog the whole path completely from one side to the other. Its annoying when you can't pass slower traffic that is doing that just because they are @$$es rather then because one is respectfully waiting to pass until their is a brake in oncoming traffic. It is far more then annoying when you encounter oncoming high speed traffic (such as a group ride of other cyclists) who are taking up the whole path from one edge to the other and are oncoming at speed and have no intentions of signaling up and look like they would rather ram you in a head on collision and you either have to play chicken with them or go completely off the path. That is not unlike driving a car on your side of a two lane, two way street and encountering a pack of oncoming cars taking up both lanes with no intentions of moving over into their oncoming lane and would rather ram you in a head on collision and you either have to pay chicken with them or go off the road.

turbo1889

That fact that I encounter roadies including those riding in groups using this particular MUP is a statement to how good of a path it actually is compared to how bad of a road it runs along side. Although I don't know for sure of course I believe many of these roady groups are on the main road before the path begins and get back on the main road after it ends. If even the roadies are using the path then that is a testiment that for cyclist its either a really good path or a really bad road or more likely both.

I just wish they would narrow up for oncoming traffic better instead of trying to hold formation taking up the whole path edge to edge giving me "the get out of our way" look. Some of them do narrow up and obviously the solo roadies aren't an issue since the path is always at least two bikes wide but some of those groups will just charge right at you.

The path itself is a great piece of infrastructure and one of the few examples of "good bicycle infrastructure" I can point to around here, the problems are with how some users are using it.

turbo1889

I would put forth that the first step in getting any kind of chaos and anarchy cleaned up is to first establish very sensible basic rules and then to take steps to at least educate people. You have to deal with establishing some basic ground rules and then dealing with ignorance problem first before you do anything else. Rarely is just that first step sufficient to accomplish basic civilized behavior, especially instantaneously, but you have to start somewhere and usually starting at square one is the best place to start. I'm only suggesting that at least the first step be taken.

I am putting forth what to my mind seems to be the most sensible way to take that first baby step which even if nothing else beyond that got done would be better then it is now.

kmv2

I like that 8 bit NES style poster.

You should add a signals one.

Stop/slow and left don't mean I'm going for a high five.
Right doesn't mean I'm waving hello to you.

The bell ding is NOT a demand to move over, it's a warning that I'm going to pass.

FBinNY 

I use an MUP about every other day on my commute home. It's a nice park trail paralleling a parkway. But though I use it for transit, I consider this and all MUPs as not suitable for serious cycling. IMO they're for people who want to enjoy a day in the park, not for cyclists looking for a workout or to get from place A to B.

People are courteous, though often lacking in road sense, so some patience is called for, but the system works. One nice thing is that many people operate on a sort of schedule, so I see the same people on a regular basis. They become park acquaintances, and we exchange greetings as we pass each other.

If you're not willing to share a path with strollers, children, pets, skateboarders, geese and the occasional turtle, than MUPs aren't for you. OTOH, if you slow down one in a while you can have a nice relaxing ride, and enjoy the sights, ans sounds of the park setting. The other day, I had a hawk swoop down and snag a squirrel out of my path, not 10 feet in front of me. To me that kind of thing makes MUPs worth the inconvenience

markus_mudd

I love our big MUP. It's very useful and tons of folks use it for daily transportation. The only people who seem to have a problem with it are the ones who want to blast around at full speed and never slow down. There is plenty of chaos but it doesn't bother me and I simply can't squeeze out a real complaint as I prefer to have people and dogs buzzing around instead of cars. My chances are GREAT in a collision and the people are almost always quieter and they usually lack that unleaded or diesel exhaust smell.

turbo1889

I'm not talking about a park path, I'm talking about a nearly 20-mile long path built between a major town and several other smaller urban areas that is used by people not only for pleasure but for transportation in and out of the major town and the outlying areas.

The only reason I would be cycling on a park path is if I needed to get to the other side and that was the best route.

MUPs aren't just built in parks, I really don't care about park paths, but MUP that are used for transportation I do care about those and all I ask is the most basic and simplest of all civilized courtesies.

FBinNY 

Yes, and joggers, walkers, families and so on also ask for the same. MUP means just that - Multi use path, and I see your assumption of right of way as analogous to how some motorists feel when cyclists get in their way.

BTW- the path I described earlier is also about 20 miles long, connecting multiple cities and towns. When it isn't too crowded I car ride ay my normal 20mph or so for decent stretches, slowing only in more congested areas. But I accept and respect the fact that other users want to enjoy their walks or jogs without being chased out of the way by speeding cyclists.

The day I start thinking of my fellow humans as simply obstacles in my way is the day I decide I need to move to north central Canada.

Rootman

I too have issues with the MUPs and pretty much have given up on them, we have simpler sinege on a few of them clearly stating for everyone to keep RIGHT, sound when passing and keep speed below 15mph. And most weeks I still get the same issues the OP cites. So I just extended my routes and started using the roads for about 95% of my rides, a few times the MUPs offer a safe passage past high traffic roads or highways, so I use them to cut through to somewhere else.

As long as they are primarily for "entertainment" rather than for mostly commuting people are bound to abuse them and act like asses, goofs and just plain ignore common sense. My advice is to anyone is to skip them and move to the road if at all possible and convenient. .

turbo1889

You accuse me of having an "assumption of right of way as analogous to how some motorists feel when cyclists get in their way". I already responded to this when I responded to Juha above. I think it's pretty clear from my OP and the signage I suggested that I have no problem with waiting to pass until safe to do so just as I wish cars would do on the roads. The only way your analogy holds up and your unfounded accusation has a prayer of being accurate is if cyclists also choose to block the entire road from one edge of the pavement to the other including the oncoming lane such that the only way cars can pass is to drive off the road on the grass and "off road it" around the cyclists. I do not suggest that pedestrians should get the heck off the path and out of my way like motorists demand of cyclists, I do not suggest in any way that pedestrians do not have full right and access to the path and that faster traffic should have to wait to pass them with care when oncoming traffic is clear, in fact I actually claim the opposite in my OP.

How would you feel if you were driving a car down a narrow two lane road (one lane in each direction) and a pack of souped up wannabe race cars going three wide and two or three deep on that two line road coming straight at you with no intentions of even slowing down. How do you think I feel on my bike when I'm staring down a pace line of also wannabe racers three wide and two or three deep on a two wide path coming straight at you with no intentions of even slowing down. And you think you have the right to not even bother to read or look at what I have written or drawn up and in direct contradiction to what I have written and have drawn up before accusing me of the exact opposite of what I've stated. I'm sick of your kind your as bad or worse then the motorists that have deliberately run me off "their road".

LEARN TO READ !!! AT THE VERY LEAST AT LEAST LOOK AT THE PICTURES !!!

Would a person who as you suggest believes they have an assumption of right of way and wants to chase other people off the path draw up a sign like this for how faster cyclists are supposed to behave towards slower path users? (Color coded close up, GREEN is "YES !", RED is "NO !!!")




Try your analogy out on that one for size, just replace the peds. with cyclists and the cyclist with a car ~ if only all car drivers would show us at least only that much respect on the road.

There are few things I hate more then being accused of being the exact kind of person I am campaigning against when the person making the accusation has ample opportunity to see very clearly if they had half a brain and one good eye to actually look out of to plainly see I'm the exact opposite. I cannot see how it could be anything other then deliberate intentional slander.

turbo1889

If cyclist were to ride in groups like this on the roads all the time blocking both lanes so cars couldn't even pass in the oncoming side of the road then you might have a point.

(Yes, I know it looks like they are in the process of moving over from one side to the other of the road but it was the only decent picture I could find on google image search showing a group of cyclists actually taking up the whole road including the oncoming lane. Just assume they all intend to hold their positions and ride down the length of the road like that blocking the whole road from edge to edge including the oncoming lane so that no cars can pass them without driving around them and going completely off the road, including cars coming from the other direction and you will get what I'm trying to say about some users of MUPs hogging up the whole path from one edge to the other so that not even oncoming traffic can pass much less faster traffic wishing to pass from behind):



But even then I would be one of the ones arguing that doing so as a standard way to ride bikes on the road (in a group obviously, short of a really wide trailer a single cyclist couldn't accomplish taking up both lanes going both directions on a two lane road) would not be right or fair or in any level of due consideration for other road users and at most you can only block up the side of the road going in your direction and have to at least leave the oncoming side of the road open for oncoming traffic and to allow faster traffic from behind to pass when the oncoming side of the road is clear.

Yes, there is such a thing as a narrow one way road that is so narrow that it is barely one car wide and a car and a bike cannot share the lane side by side safely so conceivably a car could get trapped behind a bike on such a road for a long ways if the cyclist decides to never pull over out of the kindness of his heart and let the car go by (something I would argue he isn't required to do if he doesn't want to do but he would be a total @$$ if he actually decided to not at least let pull over and let faster traffic go by at least once in a while). I have yet to see a paved MUP set-up in a similar matter that is signed and/or marked as being one way only and so narrow that it is only one person wide so there is no opportunity to pass unless the slower person steps off the path to let the faster person go ahead. If such a path did exist I would feel the same way that the slower person was under no requirement to do so but if they didn't do it at least every once in a while they would be being a total @$$.


Edit:

Found a better picture of cyclists actually blocking up an entire road from edge to edge so no one could get by including oncoming traffic. If cyclist habitually and normally rode on the road like this then you might have a point. As of yet I have never personally encountered that kind of behavior from cyclists anywhere but on an MUPs and they are not unique in that since other users of MUPs do the same darn thing:

turbo1889

I agree, I also personally prefer to use the roads and ride with the cars instead for the vast majority but sometimes it does happen that a path even with its problems with actually be a better option then the road and in those cases I will use them (of the paths I know of within a century ride of where I am only two of them fall into that category for me and only one of them I actually use all that often).

I just don't think that the problems are necessary and my personality is such that when I see problems that are not necessary and could be easily addressed, well I want them addressed and I don't think its unreasonable to do so especially when its a public right of way and only the most basic level of civilized behavior and courtesy is necessary. If cyclists decided to hog up the whole road from edge to edge and not even leave room for oncoming traffic to pass without going off the road much less faster traffic wishing to pass from behind and even refused to yield to that oncoming traffic expecting the oncoming traffic to get off the road and out of their way I don't think that would last very long in the public tolerance, yet that is exactly what some users of MUPs are doing and getting away with regularly. And as I said, its by no means just peds., its cyclists too and the cyclists especially the pace lines of wannabe racers are a lot more scary when their coming straight at you with every intention of running you off the path. Can't hardly imagine how the peds. must feel about that since I'm a cyclist myself so I'm probably less intimidated ticked off by it then they must be.

FBinNY 

Turbo-

I don't accuse you of anything, but if your use of FULL CAPS and BOLD FACE OVERSIZE typefaces is in any way indicative of the rage and frustration you feel on the MUP, you have my sympathy.

Yes, MUPs are chaos, and the pedestrians hate dodging the crazy cyclists that speed by, and the cyclists hate the pedestrians that spread out and make it an obstacle course, and I agree with you if you're frustrated by paceline roadies (if they're on the path, I'm not sure from scanning your posts), who probably shouldn't be on a MUP in the first place.

But that's the way it is. Rant all you want, it won't change anything, so either calm down and adapt to the way things are and make the best of it, or use the road where there is more order.

Ranting at me, and putting up bold face posts here certainly won't change the situation on your MUP in Montana, though if it helps you vent, I'll just take it as that and not post on these threads.

turbo1889

This is what "Set me off" with the bold large size type face, especially considering I had already addressed the issue in direct contradiction that that of which you accuse me.

As to the MUP, yes, it is annoying and sometimes some of the worst offenders do also "Set me off". But whether or not the MUP issues "Set me off" or not is not what I wanted to "vent" about when I started this thread. I was rather my intent to discuss at least potential partial solutions to the issues.

Siu Blue Wind

Okay enough.