shovelhd

It's been that way for the Cat3 upgrade for a while now with the finishing rule. I think the biggest benefit will be for Masters going from 3->2 and 2->1 as they can accumulate points against younger riders over time. If USAC really wants to do grassroots racing right they will get rid of the crossresults style rankings with hunters and prey and put in a real points tracking and calculation system that has real meaning to racers. Couple that with the enforcement of mandatory upgrades and that will clean up a lot of the mess we have now. But I digress.

gsteinb

shut down and get out of the way for someone else to do it.

globecanvas

How would you change the existing ranking points calculation?

mike868y

shovel, i can't tell you how much i appreciate you giving back to the sport despite the fact that you'll no longer be racing. people like you are what keeps grassroots cycling alive.

grolby

The rule changed at the end of the 2012 season, incorporating points earned in that year. So this is the 4th season of strictly cumulative points (you can use points earned in 2012). There's still room for the upgrade official's discretion, too.

This has come up before, but FWIW I took the 4-->3 experience upgrade on pack finishes back at the end of 2012. I intended originally to do it the old-fashioned way, with points, and was very confident of achieving it. I was out of grad school, I was healthy and my form had started responding. But on a whim I sent in the request, and I was pretty surprised when it was granted. Personally, I've never had any reason to regret taking the experience upgrade. I didn't tear up the scene during my first season as a 3, but I was active in races and had a handful of decent results. Not a lot different from a lot of people who upgrade on points and just don't have the time to train or otherwise don't put together a big season right away. On the other hand, there are undoubtedly people who take the upgrade and find themselves in over their heads. But is that causing problems in Cat 3 races? I don't see it.

I bring this up because I know the pack finish upgrade is rather dimly viewed around here. I think the perception is that it lets people upgrade who don't deserve it. And that's kind of the same idea behind the concept of "category inflation" brought on by the no-expiration points system. It's tied up in ideas of merit and even category-based prestige, and who is worthy of it and whatever. I think the reality is that even with upgrades based strictly on points, we get riders upgrading to higher categories who aren't ready for it, in terms of skills if not in terms of strength. And we also get riders hanging out in lower categories who would be fine at the next level up, even if they wouldn't be getting results. Someone's got to be the pack fill, after all.

I'm not against changing the upgrade rules if they're causing problems. I think a bigger issue with the experience upgrade than whether people who take it deserve to be 3's is just the inconsistency of having so many paths to upgrade. Maybe if there are so many riders who would be fine as a 3 but can't get the points, the problem is with the points? That's the source of some consternation in New England cyclocross over upgrade rules right now - the fields are so large and the talent pool so deep that even strong riders have a hard time earning the points to upgrade out of Cat 4. And as a result there are proposals to change the rules to make upgrades easier, not harder.

Anyway, sorry for taking this digression and running with it for so long. Maybe back to your regularly scheduled discussion of season goals??

globecanvas

I was specifically not making any value judgements. But it is clearly inflationary. I brought it up because I was struck by the number of people who have upgrade goals that would probably not have been realistic under the old rules.

TheKillerPenguin

The flip side is while you had to earn all your points in a rolling 12 month period, less points were required. 3->2 was bumped from 25 to 30, I believe similar bumps happened with other categories. I think upgrading via points is more metal, but really if you upgrade via pack finishes and aren't that strong you're not going to be in the mix at the end anyway so it doesn't really matter. The pack finishes theoretically ensure you understand how to handle your bike at least so you're probably not any sketchier than any other rider.

grolby

Yeah, sorry for not being clear - I didn't take it as a value judgment from you. But that idea is definitely out there.

Personally I have no idea if my upgrade goal is realistic, but why not have a stretch goal? Other people might be thinking the same way. So it might not have much to do with the rules. Thanks to rollover season to season, I have a grand total of 4 upgrade points. A little more than 10% of the total I need. Enough to help at the margins, but it's still necessary to earn a big chunk of points to make it happen. For cyclocross (upgrade pending), I didn't even bother including the 2 points I had from three years ago.

Hermes

I like gsteinb's .5 w/kg but I need more like 1.0 w/kg. But I have been a very good boy this year and maybe Santa will deliver.

LAVRA TTs in Carson, CA at Velo Sports Center
Road TTs and San Bruno HC Jan 1
Low Key Hill Climbs
Prep for Masters Track Worlds in Carson in 2017 and 2018
Supervise track sessions at Hellyer in San Jose.

Edit: Sometimes you just get the kids confused.

hack

I looked at a bit of cyclocross for NorCal and I think we have about 4 USAC races with some 70+ locally run non-sanctioned races. I assume most guys must travel to get upgrade points or use the road reciprocity upgrade.

Ygduf

That's why I went 2->1 in 11 months. So I could lord it over everyone!

I don't mind inflationary upgrades. If you upgrade yourself out of the race it really only hurts the upgraded person.

mattm

As others have stated, it has been this way for a while already.

Either way, the cream always rises to the top.. I have no problem with "inflated" categories.

Word.

globecanvas

[edit] I deleted my post for being too far off topic, but ygduf quoted it before I did. Sorry.

Ygduf

I still had to get an increased # of points in that 11 months to make it. Anyway, like @mattm said, the cream rises. I maybe collected an extra point or 3 due to cumulative-years-points guys, but in order to get them I had to beat the best guys in the race who certainly belonged there.

When I got to cat 2 I thought I'd never sniff another point. When I got to cat 1 I was happy I could go back to racing for the win instead of trying to be there at the end for my 2 points.

The real points inflation out here is that we have 50+ race days available in which to try and collect points.

tetonrider

i cannot speak for others, but i i would generally discourage someone from taking an experience upgrade not because i feel it is a matter of who deserves it or not. if USAC offers an upgrade that way, then getting it is playing by the rules.

the reason i feel like it is wise for most people to wait is that the points seem to flow as people figure out how to race. scoring points breeds confidence and being competitive in races means that riders may use the time to experiment with different strategies. it may not happen from 4->3, but generally when one moves up they may find either that previous "strengths" are now just average and that opportunities to win are more rare than they were in the category they just left.

there's lots made of 'death of the group ride' and a lack of mentoring (sometimes blamed on training with power meters); it has struck me that many riders develop "cat 3 power" faster than they develop racing senses/skills--and a little more time spent

plus, it's fun for someone to win a race, and eventually we all upgrade to a level (even if that is the TdF) where wins just do not happen or are very rare.when times are tough for a rider, it is often nice/motivating to have a win (no matter whether it is cat 1 or cat 5) to look back on and help us through solitary winter training hours.

of course, there are exceptions to every rule. every case is unique--but if we're talking about the average cat 4, i'd suggest waiting until they have enough points.

"deserve" isn't a word i'd use in the context of upgrades. it's a hobby. i'm sure there's someone out there who got an upgrade to cat 3 through doping, though--i guess THEY wouldn't deserve it in my eyes.

gsteinb

Chodroff. David Anthony.

tetonrider

as pointed out by someone else, this has been around for a little bit, but your post made me think.

my guess is that cat 3 will still be the "destination category" that USAC claims it is right now.

i think we'll continue to see some vanity upgrades (e.g. people who, say, want to make it from a 3->2 before they stop racing -- or a masters riders who goes from 2->1 but still only races masters, so what does it matter?).

there's so much turnover; people seem to stop racing before they really clog up the system. i wonder what the license renewal rate is for 2nd year vs 3rd, 5th, 10th.

on a related note, i've seen a few of cat 1's complaining about their $25 surcharge for 2016. it's a small sample, but the ones i've seen have been masters athletes who have not raced open events in years. i suggested that they downgrade to cat 2 if it's about the money ($25 vs $5), but i doubt they will. i do get the ego part of it.

tetonrider

yeah--you have TONS of unsanctioned races. same with OR...and while my "local" region doesn't have as many races, what we have are unsanctioned.

you can match your road category (not always smart, IMO) or some places just let you pick your category when you sign up (not a terrible thing, IMO). the ranking thing for someone from NorCal or OR tends to only matter for getting a call-up at nationals -- and OR rider can upgrade within their system without traveling. i know the NE guys have call-ups at local events, but they go off their own system (cross results), which are similar to but not the same as USAC points.

Ygduf

did they change the points from 2->1 have to come from open, non-master's races?

TheKillerPenguin

I remember his herculean efforts and was at the receiving end of a few of them. He never did figure out how to ride a pro crit, though.

globecanvas

I think you can crossgrade to your road category plus 1. In other words, a road cat 2 can upgrade to cross cat 3 without ever racing. But not to cross cat 2.


Nope! Only 10/35 cat 1 points can come from masters races. So, no vanity cat 1 upgrades for old guys.

tetonrider

yes, it is inflationary, but i agree that is neither bad nor good -- it is just truth. you eliminate any expiration of points and more people (1? 100? all of them?) will eventually move up.

my take on the matter is that category upgrades should be a result of achieving goals, not a goal in itself. it's a product of doing things well and you get it when it is appropriate.

goal: win XYZ office park crit. podium at ABC amateur stage race.
how: by improving 1' power, racing smarter, entering 10 more crits than last year to increase the odds
result: if i improve power and race smarter, i'll finish in the points at my races and upgrading will naturally follow.

tetonrider

is this true? you could match it the last time i checked (which was 2 years ago).

canuckbelle

This. I think the real 'inflation' is when riders are getting points from really weak races. I'm a lowly Cat 3 at the moment, but there are lots of Cat 2 and Cat 1 girls I'm beating. I know at least a couple of them came up through relatively small, weak fields. So if there are lots of those races available each year, it's pretty easy to upgrade.

globecanvas

Yes. Page 22 here has a conversion chart which amounts to cross=road+1 for road cats 2-4. Road cat 1s/pros are allowed to be cross cat 1s.