View Poll Results: What Are Your Helmet Wearing Habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet
52
10.40%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped
24
4.80%
I've always worn a helmet
208
41.60%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do
126
25.20%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions
90
18.00%
Voters: 500. You may not vote on this poll
The Helmet Thread 2
#3876
Habitual User
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 8,049
Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2018 Trek Procaliber 9.9 RSL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4997 Post(s)
Liked 8,166 Times
in
3,862 Posts
It is a great argument to illustrate that you are completely clueless on this topic -- since you were just preaching about manufacturers rigorously testing their helmets. That is precisely not the case, which is why Virginia Tech University has had to step into the breach and develop a test program.
__________________
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
Likes For Eric F:
#3877
Full Member
As are the materials used in proper helmets that exhibit an improvement in wearer protection. Why don't you wear one of those helmets, instead of a bicycle helmet that exhibits no benefit?
It is nowhere near as simple as you seem to think, as evidenced by the fact that you got your calculation wrong -- it's not 100%. Hint: Consider what happens when the foam is fully compressed.
And again, you are missing half of the equation. The increased size of your effective "head" necessarily results in more and more-severe impacts. So the question is not "Does foam absorb some energy?" It is "Does foam absorb sufficient energy to offset the increase caused by the effective head-size increase?"
That question is anything but simple to answer -- and statistics indicate that the answer is most-likely "No".
Depends on how good their aim is. I'd rather they just barely miss my head than solidly contact my helmet, and so would you.
Again, helmet usage in the United States precisely matches the percentage of cyclist fatalities who were helmeted when they crashed -- currently both numbers are 32%. That is the precise signature of a placebo. This has been the case for many years.
Given that situation, there are only three potential high-level explanations:
Answer 1: Bicycle helmets are placebos.
Answer 2: Bicycle helmets save riders' lives, but some unknown force prevents this effect from appearing statistically.
Answer 3: Bicycle helmets cost riders' lives, but some unknown force prevents this effect from appearing statistically.
For the moment, let's ignore the third option, since it really doesn't matter because any unknown force that could satisfy A2 could apply to A3 as well, with the opposite sign.
So I will offer the helmetista crew here an olive branch, and I won't even ask for proof that A2 is the case, I will just ask for a hypothesis that could explain how A2 could be the case. Offer a plausible explanation, and maybe we can investigate it together, and determine its veracity. To date, no one has even been able to offer such a hypothesis, despite repeated requests. What could be this unknown force that prevents helmet effectiveness from leaving a statistical signature?
#3878
Full Member
By the way, in an interesting tangential development, the effectiveness of motorcycle helmets appears to be declining. In 2022, 60.26% of US motorcyclist fatalities were helmeted, while only 66.5% of riders wore helmets. That gap is down by close to half from just last decade.
#3879
Full Member
#3880
Clark W. Griswold
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 13,611
Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4394 Post(s)
Liked 4,029 Times
in
2,690 Posts
Well, you've demonstrated a critical need for improved reading comprehension about a dozen times now -- I was being charitable and hoping your problem was a lack of coffee. Turns out, it may be a lack of ability to understand, which you continually demonstrate as well.
68% of American cyclists do not wear helmets. I am far from the only person who is aware that they do not work -- I'm just one of extremely few willing to attempt to educate persons like yourself.
Again with the lack of comprehension. You are no less safe with the wind in your hair versus wearing a bicycle helmet.
It is amusing that you are so completely uninformed that you think peer review has value.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...l-hoax/572212/
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...s-and-scholars
https://www.forbes.com/sites/geoffre...h=450ccbd5463e
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2...iew-statistics
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8877864/
68% of American cyclists do not wear helmets. You hold the minority opinion.
It is a great argument to illustrate that you are completely clueless on this topic -- since you were just preaching about manufacturers rigorously testing their helmets. That is precisely not the case, which is why Virginia Tech University has had to step into the breach and develop a test program.
And you had absolutely zero clue about that, until I educated you. As with the remainder of this entire topic.
So are you willing to accept my challenge, or not? If I provide the statistics that I previously referenced, will you be an honest person and admit that you have been wrong?
68% of American cyclists do not wear helmets. I am far from the only person who is aware that they do not work -- I'm just one of extremely few willing to attempt to educate persons like yourself.
Again with the lack of comprehension. You are no less safe with the wind in your hair versus wearing a bicycle helmet.
It is amusing that you are so completely uninformed that you think peer review has value.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...l-hoax/572212/
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...s-and-scholars
https://www.forbes.com/sites/geoffre...h=450ccbd5463e
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2...iew-statistics
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8877864/
68% of American cyclists do not wear helmets. You hold the minority opinion.
It is a great argument to illustrate that you are completely clueless on this topic -- since you were just preaching about manufacturers rigorously testing their helmets. That is precisely not the case, which is why Virginia Tech University has had to step into the breach and develop a test program.
And you had absolutely zero clue about that, until I educated you. As with the remainder of this entire topic.
So are you willing to accept my challenge, or not? If I provide the statistics that I previously referenced, will you be an honest person and admit that you have been wrong?
68% of people don't wear helmets
Now your articles have gone even farther off the deep end and have even less to do about helmets in the helmet thread. You really are going to great lengths to not support your opinion. It is amazing you hold such a ridiculous opinion but you won't actually stand behind it. You would think at the very least you would have posted those NHTSA studies you claim to have but you couldn't even do that. The best article you had was not one you posted and was just an extra one underneath one of the bicycling articles you posted and even that one was weak the first one's most damning strike against helmets was helmet hair which is neither dangerous nor a reason not to wear a helmet. Everything you post doesn't help you and your argument which is already super weak.
So your argument is now stemming upon someone else agreeing to some silly challenge that you have? You can't back up your argument it is OK that is fine just bow out.
You educated me? What did you educate me about, you not being able to stand behind your opinion or is it that there isn't all these studies you claim to be able to find easily? You educated me like the Jersey Shore show educates people as in not at all.
#3881
Expired Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,601
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3691 Post(s)
Liked 5,497 Times
in
2,786 Posts
#3882
Full Member
I should hope that's rhetorical, because you've already been told several times that the data is available from the NHTSA. Are you unable to comprehend those 5 letters?
So, just to confirm then -- you lack the sufficient faith in your position to state that you will admit to being wrong, after I post the evidence?
What are you scared of? If you are certain that I am either wrong, or unable to defend my position, just state here publicly that you will admit to being wrong after I do so. You've nothing to lose, right?
Let's see -- in no particular order:
- the crisis in peer review
- the fact that some products which do not protect people remain for sale
- the fact that modern products do not necessarily improve on millennia of evolution
- the nearly useless-quality of cycling injury statistics
- the difference between Buzzfeed and fivethirtyeight
- the many substances in the environment that are not harder than a human head
- that paddlers do not wear helmets because of the "hardness" of water
- that manufacturers do not rigorously test their helmets
- and most importantly, that bicycle helmets exhibit the precise statistical signature of a placebo
#3883
Full Member
"These numbers are likely higher since cyclists’ injuries are still considerably under-reported, particularly in cases where no automobile was involved4."
Also, entertainingly, they had to whittle-down their dataset from an initial 780 studies to just 10 ( ! ) due to the lacking quality thereof, and some of those studies included as few as 21 cases. Meanwhile, they claim to expect a reduction in cyclist fatalities due to helmet usage, per their estimates, but they declined to explain why that has never occurred in the real world.
The second study you linked was done by one of the same authors who famously had his earlier attempt retracted pursuant to the Data Quality Act, since it was garbage.
https://waba.org/blog/2013/06/feds-w...ent-effective/
So nice try, but you'll want to do better next time.
#3884
Expired Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,601
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3691 Post(s)
Liked 5,497 Times
in
2,786 Posts
That's as good as it gets, though. Obviously nobody is going to set up controlled experiments. I wonder why this subject has you so agitated. Wasn't there a question in some of your other whoop ups as to whether you even ride a bike? Do you stand on the street and tell folks they shouldn't look both ways before crossing? Or rail against people thoroughly cooking their pork? Even Larry knows to use a condom.
Likes For shelbyfv:
#3885
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,925
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4814 Post(s)
Liked 3,944 Times
in
2,566 Posts
Our new shop will have a policy of wearing helmets at all events we are a part of. There is no ifs ands or buts in this situation. There is just no point to not wear one unless you are riding on soft fluffy clouds in dreamland and your bike is made of air (but plenty stiff). I have a brain and it ain't perfect but unfortunately I won't be able to get another one and really don't want to have to do that ever. It would be miserable to have any brain damage especially as a result of cycling. I love eating vegetables but I don't want to become one unless it were a cartoonish version and I was a crime fighting habanero pepper with garlic bulbs for fists...HAHAHA
Likes For 79pmooney:
#3886
Full Member
Originally Posted by https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/3/2/110
RESULTS: There were 3854 injured cyclists in the three year period; 3390 (88%) completed questionnaires were returned 51% wore helmets at the time of crash. Only 22.3% of patients had head injuries and 34% had facial injuries. Risk of serious injury was increased by collision with a motor vehicle (odds ratio (OR) = 4.6), self reported speed > 15 mph (OR = 1.2), young age (< 6 years), and age > 39 years (OR = 2.1 and 2.2 respectively, compared with adults 20-39 years). Risk for serious injury was not affected by helmet use (OR = 0.9). Risk of neck injury was increased in those struck by motor vehicles (OR = 4.0), hospitalized for any injury (OR = 2.0), and those who died (OR = 15.1), but neck injury was not affected by helmet use. CONCLUSIONS: Prevention of serious bicycle injuries cannot be accomplished through helmet use alone, and may require separation of cyclists from motor vehicles, and delaying cycling until children are developmentally ready.
No, that was a pathetic and desperate attempt by an individual with no remaining position to defend, who had previously talked a lot of smack, and regretted it -- you should probably search up that person, you two might have a lot in common.
#3887
Habitual User
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 8,049
Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2018 Trek Procaliber 9.9 RSL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4997 Post(s)
Liked 8,166 Times
in
3,862 Posts
Sorry, TC1. It appears that you have not convinced a single person here that wearing a bike helmet has no safety benefit over a bare head. Your theories simply don’t hold water against common sense backed up by personal experiences, and data. Your attempts at justifying your position are weak, and lack substantive supporting data. Statistics can be interpreted different ways, depending on the picture you want to paint. Fail. Zero stars. Do not recommend.
You have the distinct title of being the first BF’er to join my ignore list.
You have the distinct title of being the first BF’er to join my ignore list.
Last edited by Eric F; 04-16-24 at 10:01 PM.
Likes For Eric F:
#3888
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,971
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3962 Post(s)
Liked 7,362 Times
in
2,965 Posts
There's a well known horse trainer that also believes helmets make you less safe. His argument is that the weight of a helmet makes it more likely that a rider will land on their head if thrown from a horse. (I suggested they should just wear lead spurs to guarantee that they always landed on their feet.)
#3889
Full Member
Here is a "simple" experiment that you can do at home, to learn how wrong you are, and it only requires two items -- a bucket of water, and a section of new EPS foam. Float the foam on the water, and wait until the water settles to a glassy surface. Now take your fist, and strike the foam. Your hypothesis is that 100% of the energy from your strike will be absorbed by the foam, and in that case, the water will remain completely undisturbed and glass.
Please have someone record a video, and post your results.
At least I've defended my position. You, and just about everyone else, have been forced to resort to ad hominem attacks because you can't even attempt to defend yours.
#3890
Expired Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,601
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3691 Post(s)
Liked 5,497 Times
in
2,786 Posts
"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." Supposedly Mark Twain but does it matter? Anyway, I agree that nobody is convinced. It's bad enough to make the leap from death statistics to all injuries but some person with no expertise imagining they can pull off a "gotcha" of NIH, etc is too much. Of course we just went through this with anti-vaxxers so it shouldn't be a surprise. Repetition, lack of new material has diminished the entertainment so I'll move along as well.
Last edited by shelbyfv; 04-17-24 at 10:39 AM.
#3891
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SF Bay Area, East bay
Posts: 7,678
Bikes: Miyata 618 GT, Marinoni, Kestral 200 2002 Trek 5200, KHS Flite, Koga Miyata, Schwinn Spitfire 5, Mondia Special, Univega Alpina, Miyata team Ti, Santa Cruz Highball
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1616 Post(s)
Liked 2,613 Times
in
1,233 Posts
The stance that helmets do nothing is where you go off the track. They are used to mitigate the impact. I rode yesterday and saw about 90 percent of the riders using helmets. There was no complaints about their use or non use. I think the biggest issue with people not riding is that their but hurts...
#3892
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,971
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3962 Post(s)
Liked 7,362 Times
in
2,965 Posts
#3893
Clark W. Griswold
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 13,611
Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4394 Post(s)
Liked 4,029 Times
in
2,690 Posts
Anyone even slightly versed in the topic knows that helmet testing and certification has been a long-standing problem.
I should hope that's rhetorical, because you've already been told several times that the data is available from the NHTSA. Are you unable to comprehend those 5 letters?
So, just to confirm then -- you lack the sufficient faith in your position to state that you will admit to being wrong, after I post the evidence?
What are you scared of? If you are certain that I am either wrong, or unable to defend my position, just state here publicly that you will admit to being wrong after I do so. You've nothing to lose, right?
Let's see -- in no particular order:
I should hope that's rhetorical, because you've already been told several times that the data is available from the NHTSA. Are you unable to comprehend those 5 letters?
So, just to confirm then -- you lack the sufficient faith in your position to state that you will admit to being wrong, after I post the evidence?
What are you scared of? If you are certain that I am either wrong, or unable to defend my position, just state here publicly that you will admit to being wrong after I do so. You've nothing to lose, right?
Let's see -- in no particular order:
- the crisis in peer review
- the fact that some products which do not protect people remain for sale
- the fact that modern products do not necessarily improve on millennia of evolution
- the nearly useless-quality of cycling injury statistics
- the difference between Buzzfeed and fivethirtyeight
- the many substances in the environment that are not harder than a human head
- that paddlers do not wear helmets because of the "hardness" of water
- that manufacturers do not rigorously test their helmets
- and most importantly, that bicycle helmets exhibit the precise statistical signature of a placebo
You keep saying this data exists but yet you CANNOT prove it. It is not on me to find the data to back up your position. It is not on me to have to argue on your behalf and provide evidence to prove something that is so ridiculous. You cannot prove me wrong literally your position is untenable. "Helmets are unsafe because of helmet hair and someone might think cycling is dangerous if you wear helmets and because Amazon and others sell bad helmets they must all be unsafe, VA Tech has to rate them now.. Oh and if you want to find the data to back up my position you need to do because I can't" I think I have summed up your position pretty well and I am sure your response will be "you got it all wrong you won't let me post the data because you won't agree to my silly terms" or some such nonsense.
So no real education then because none of that is actual education. It is you trying to make more silly claims or say something that was already known. I know why paddlers where helmets yet you are trying to claim that rocks are some how significantly harder than pavement and because of that one should not wear a helmet. Some manufacturers do rigorously test their helmets some don't. You haven't educated about placebos you have just used the word over and over and over making false claims.
Your favorite blog and Buzzfeed are different but the article you posted was again listing Buzzfeed as their first source and then a tweet from Buzzfeed and the only mention of helmets was "helmet hair" which is very very very very very very very poor support for your argument.
I feel like if you had a good argument against helmets you could articulate it clearly and concisely and provide something to back up what you are saying. You cannot do that therefore you do not have a good argument against helmets. Not only that there really isn't a good argument against helmets. There are issues with helmets but not a good argument to not wear one. You certainly don't actually have one otherwise you would have posted it.
#3895
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,399
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2497 Post(s)
Liked 2,977 Times
in
1,688 Posts
More cynically, they can contest or deny a claim resulting from injury or death of a cyclist by citing the absence of a helmet, but that would still be argued on the basis of their data showing that bike helmets generally reduce accident trauma.
#3896
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,984
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,539 Times
in
1,048 Posts
Exactly. They depend on their actuarial tables to establish policies and rates. Their numbers have told them that the use of bike helmets saves them money.
More cynically, they can contest or deny a claim resulting from injury or death of a cyclist by citing the absence of a helmet, but that would still be argued on the basis of their data showing that bike helmets generally reduce accident trauma.
More cynically, they can contest or deny a claim resulting from injury or death of a cyclist by citing the absence of a helmet, but that would still be argued on the basis of their data showing that bike helmets generally reduce accident trauma.
Note that insurance companies can contest or deny anything for any reason that a lawyer can dream up; doesn't mean it will hold up if challenged in court.
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 04-18-24 at 06:46 AM.
#3897
Full Member
Would ya look at that! It can learn.
After I do so, will you admit that you are wrong?
#3899
Full Member
For the record, everyone here who claims that bicycle helmets do save lives has also made a claim without providing a link to evidence. Claims that estimate that bicycle helmets should save lives are not evidence that they do.
Last edited by TC1; 04-18-24 at 01:37 PM. Reason: typo, added NSC