Biker Pete 

I am having difficulty with this. I cannot turn the nipples without also twisting the spoke (which are aero bladed). Pretty sure I have the right tools for the job - Park Tool spoke wrench and clamping spoke holder. But I am a little reluctant to clamp too hard on the carbon spoke for fear of damaging it. I contacted the wheel manufacturer (Winspace) and they said they do not use Loctite or similar on the spoke threads. Any help would be most welcome. The wheel needs truing - approx 2mm (edit: exactly 3.4mm) of side to side wobble. Spoke tension meter shows no spokes are unreasonably out of tension.

SW84

Andrew R Stewart 

Rim or hub brake? If hub brake I would leave the wheel as is. If rim brake and you can't keep the brake pads from rubbing is the only time I would consider 2mm to be needing any attention.

When you talked with the wheel manufacturer (or are they only an assembler from other company's prefabricated parts?) did you ask about replacement spokes/nipples (or other unique to this wheel set parts)? I might want to be sure I could replace a spoke or other part (freehub body, bearings, axle securing aspects like thru axles or QRs) before I begin to done possibly damaging stuff. Andy

Biker Pete 

Rim brake. What made me notice was brake squeal on the rear wheel - something that was new. At first I just removed the wheel, inspected/cleaned the brake pads and rim braking surface. When I re-installed the wheel is when I noticed it was out of true - also something new, it was perfect about 100 miles ago.

Agree about getting spoke and nipple spares from Winspace.

Kontact 

Make a slotted tool out of plastic or wrap the useful part of the spoke in layers of masking tape.

Put a drop of drislide or triflow on every nipple to start.

Andrew R Stewart 

I doubt there's any correlation between the slightly out of true rim and that there's squeal when applying the brakes. Additionally carbon rims are known for their poorer braking issues when compared to Al rims. We assume the bike already has carbon specific brake pads? Do know some carbon rim spec pads work better than others, some experimentation might be in the future

2mm of lateral run out is pretty minor and if that is what the wheel settles into (remember there is some break in with new wheels WRT spoke tensions and trueness) with the spoke tensions still being consistent I would likely just leave it as is. Did this run out cause any rubbing? Andy

base2 

I would not use a hard metal tool on carbon spokes for any reason. Least of which is to crimp, clamp, or squeeze.

A flat and thick piece of HDPE with a slot cut in it that just fits over the spoke to prevent rotation is a much, much better solution.

Beware though, there will still be a twisting between the tool and the nipple head. Just because you minimized damage risk does not mean you eliminated it.

Given that carbon fiber is particularly adept at resisting tensile loads, I question the integrity of any carbon spoked wheel that needs any truing at all. The spokes didn't "just seat" or stretch like over-stresed metal...There is a reason the spoke lengths changed somehow.

Biker Pete 

I just measured with digital calipers (instead of eyeballing) on my truing wheel. The lateral runout is 3.4mm. Way too much for me. But I am unable to tighten or loosen the nipples. Very frustrating.

And yes, brake pads are DT Swiss Yellow for carbon rims. They have been pretty much silent until the recent rear brake squeal. The squeal may have nothing to do with the wheel being out of true, but it was what led me to observe the truing issue.

Biker Pete 

Thanks for that. Time to take off the tire and rim tape and inspect.

Andrew R Stewart 

Agreed, but to take a wheel's trueness into account with only looking at the spokes as a variable is wrong IMO. Both hub and rim holes for spoke elbows and nipples will go through a compressive change. The material at the highest point of contact pressure will flow out to have the contact point area increase and balance against the forces the spokes are providing. When relacing a used hub we deal with this and most builders will align the spoke pattern to take into account the old spokes having indented the flange holes just so. That the carbon spokes have very little stretch (compared to a steel one) makes these non spoke bedding in aspects even more likely the cause of a slight out of true after initial use. So I don't think it was the spokes changing lengths but the other two parts changing their contact dimensions.

There are a number of bike parts that are not "improved" by subbing in carbon VS steel or Al. IMO spokes are one example. Andy

base2 

Of course. But the OP's wheel also has a carbon rim. Very likely it also has straight-pull spokes. This leaves very little other options for things to "seat." Aluminum spoke nipples?

I do wish I could think of a benign pragmatic innocuous reason an all carbon, carbon spoked wheel would go out of true in an easily repairable manner.

Biker Pete 

Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions - I am learning a lot!

Yes, these are straight pull spokes. I’ll post some pics tomorrow.

Kontact 

Carbon deforms - especially where the nipples seat in the rim.

Kontact 

Just a little editorial:

The OP needs to get those nipples freed up. If they don't have something on them locking them, they should move fairly freely. So this is an opportunity.

For many years carbon wheel companies foolishly used aluminum nipples in direct contact with carbon rims. With even a little normal moisture, the galvanic reaction ate these nipples. Not recalling a name brand wheel with carbon spokes, I am a little afraid the OP's nipples aren't moving because they are alloy and have locked up with a layer of aluminum oxide in the threads.

SoSmellyAir

Heh heh, bra burning at Berkeley?

But seriously 3.4 mm side to side wobble sounds like a lot. How many total miles on these wheels? Is this an issue that is more prominent with carbon spokes?

LV2TNDM

Lubricate those nipples and LOOSEN them to get them to break free. And that means lubricating the threads at both ends as well as the nipple/rim interface. You want to do everything possible to allow the nipple to break free of its static friction on the spoke threads. Once you do this, you should be able to introduce more lube to be sure all the threads are covered, then bring the spoke up to tension (and above original) and adjust lateral rim true.

If this doesn't work, you could try pushing the rim toward the spoke with the nipple that won't break free. Do it gently, but enough where you're effectively reducing tension on that one spoke. This will help reduce the static friction the nipple is experiencing so you can break it free.

If that fails, then try adjusting other nipples adjacent to the spoke/nipple you're struggling with. I'd be sure to note all the spoke tensions in this region so you can return them to original spec. But in theory, if you can tighten the adjacent spokes, that will reduce the tension on the spoke giving you problems. THEN try to loosen it. This may do it. Once broken free and properly lubricated, then you should be able to true the wheel.

And remember, "tightening" and "loosening" is opposite when looking at the rim from the direction of the hub. (Which is the perspective a mechanic has when servicing a wheel in a truing stand.)

PS And you'll be using a bladed spoke tool to hold the spoke to prevent wind-up. But you'll obviously have to be very careful to not fracture the spoke locally around the tool you're using to hold the spoke. Other comments about not using metal against the spoke is worth heeding.

LV2TNDM

If this is the case, then the OP is going to have to detension the entire wheel and rebuild it with brass nipples. This would actually also be a solution to the stuck nipple problem. If the OP can loosen all the other nipples, this will also reduce tension on the spoke in question. Doing so incrementally around the wheel will eventually result in the stuck's nipple/spoke's tension to be low enough to break free.

Dan Burkhart 

I have had success freeing nipples fused in carbon rims by applying heat with the tip of a soldering gun where the spoke enters the nipple. This has to be done very carefully obviously as the heat is conducted rapidly so a couple of seconds is all it takes.
I am not familiar with this particular wheel brand or their spokes which are probably proprietary, but the carbon blade of the spoke is most likely bonded onto a steel shaft that the nipple threads onto, If the steel shaft is long enough to protect the bonded union from heat by wrapping it with a wet rag, I might try that in this case.

Kontact 

That's assuming it isn't a proprietary design.

Biker Pete 

Facepalm!

Andrew R Stewart 

So lets see... two wrenches, need to remove not only the tire but the one time use tape, proprietary spokes likely available only from the company, often sketchy braking feel. And people wonder why shop guys roll their eyes sometimes. My quick add up of labor to do this in a shop is closing in on $50+ and don't forget that new rim tape. This as opposed to about half to one third the cost if a traditionally spoked wheel was in play. Get those extra spokes before the company goes under or gets bought out. Andy

Biker Pete 

Yes, the need to remove tire and rim tape to true the wheel is a bit of a PITA. Rim tape is inexpensive, about $10 for 10 yards (which is enough for 4 wheels). Two tools needed for adjusting spoke tension, just like bladed straight pull steel spokes (but different tools). And yes, after contacting the manufacturer, free spokes are being sent.

I’m reasonably handy, so I don’t mind doing my own bike maintenance. The wheel is now true to within 0.5mm.

wheelreason

The only dumber thing than carbon spokes is carbon spokes...

Andrew R Stewart 

There was something about this thread that needed itching but I didn't put my finger on it till just now. Biker Pete did contact the company early on and before he hit "send" to invite us into the story. But at that company contact the spoke/nipple design and servicing procedure wasn't mentioned. My take on it, not being a fly on the wall for this contact, is that either BP didn't explain his need/goal well enough for the company customer service to understand what info was really being sought OR the company cust serv person did the "safe" thing in only answering the asked question with a very narrow reply or they didn't even think about why a customer might try to fix something and thus what might have to be done to do the fix.

This aspect has nothing to do with spoke design or servicing methods but everything to do with how we think, how we express our selves and how we see our place in the world (of bicycling servicing in this thread). So many of my replies to OP questions are to bring a more macro understanding then just the "narrow" questions usually posted. I have always felt that having a wider context of how things are and understanding the various relationships between the rider, the bike and the world will benefit others. One of the disappointing aspects of our interweb world of communication is the lack of detail when we write, if you need more than 280 key strokes you message won't be read through to it's end. Another is that offers for help and guidance can so easily come across as "I know better than you do so I am right". But enough of my mini rant.

I am glad to have followed this thread and I learned something. Although, no longer working in the LBS routinely, I doubt that I'll need to use this new knowledge. Glad the wheel is now straighter. Andy

Biker Pete 

Yes, since this is an out of the ordinary spoke/nipple design it would have been nice if my initial customer service rep would have pointed this out in our first email exchange. I was pretty clear with my issue. We exchanged emails for three days (12 hour time difference) and on the third day my request was forwarded to a service person. Their reply contained the video I posted and of course at that moment the light bulb came on in my head. The service person also asked if I wanted some replacement spokes free of charge and of course I said ‘yes please!’

Again, thanks everyone for your input on this thread. I always learn something here.