Is my Raleigh a Paramount?
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Is my Raleigh a Paramount?
I picked this bike up today off of Craigslist. Bad pictures. Called it a Raleigh USA Team. Pictures were non drive side and dark. A forum member looked close and posted it up on the eBay Craigslist thread highlighting the Chrome lugs. The decals do not match the frame. It has a Raleigh USA headbadge but the brake bridge does not match an International and the chrome socks do not match either. Came with a Campagnolo Triple , headset and seatpost. The bike looks to me like a Schwinn Paramount P 15? Serial number on left rear drop is K73123. Sorry for the bad pictures.
IMG_0985.jpg
IMG_0986.jpg
IMG_0987.jpg
IMG_0988.jpg
IMG_0991.jpg
IMG_0985.jpg
IMG_0986.jpg
IMG_0987.jpg
IMG_0988.jpg
IMG_0991.jpg
__________________
My bikes: 1970`s Roberts - 1981 Miyata 912 - 1980`s Ocshner (Chrome) - 1987 Schwinn Circuit - 1987 Schwinn Prologue - 1992 Schwinn Crosspoint - 1999 Schwinn Circuit - 2014 Cannondale Super Six EVO
My bikes: 1970`s Roberts - 1981 Miyata 912 - 1980`s Ocshner (Chrome) - 1987 Schwinn Circuit - 1987 Schwinn Prologue - 1992 Schwinn Crosspoint - 1999 Schwinn Circuit - 2014 Cannondale Super Six EVO
#2
Senior Member
Thread Starter
__________________
My bikes: 1970`s Roberts - 1981 Miyata 912 - 1980`s Ocshner (Chrome) - 1987 Schwinn Circuit - 1987 Schwinn Prologue - 1992 Schwinn Crosspoint - 1999 Schwinn Circuit - 2014 Cannondale Super Six EVO
My bikes: 1970`s Roberts - 1981 Miyata 912 - 1980`s Ocshner (Chrome) - 1987 Schwinn Circuit - 1987 Schwinn Prologue - 1992 Schwinn Crosspoint - 1999 Schwinn Circuit - 2014 Cannondale Super Six EVO
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: La Habra, California
Posts: 788
Bikes: Italvega Super Speciales and Superlights
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times
in
174 Posts
What is the equipment complement aside from what you mentioned? Has Campy dropouts? How is the head badge attached? Seat post diameter? Any tubing decals?
#4
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,639
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1299 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4682 Post(s)
Liked 5,803 Times
in
2,286 Posts
Serial number decypher, anyone?
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Tubing decals just say 4130 Chro Mo. It has a compliment of Raleigh USA decals. Campagnolo drop outs and fork ends. Dia Comp long reach calipers. Not sure how the headbadge is fastened yet? Did Raleigh USA make a Nervex chrome lugged bike with chrome socks in the 80`s? This frame does not look like a 1970`s Raleigh? I do see a spot of Opaque Blue in one of the chips. The serial number is were the Paramount Serial number is located, did Raleigh put it there as well?
__________________
My bikes: 1970`s Roberts - 1981 Miyata 912 - 1980`s Ocshner (Chrome) - 1987 Schwinn Circuit - 1987 Schwinn Prologue - 1992 Schwinn Crosspoint - 1999 Schwinn Circuit - 2014 Cannondale Super Six EVO
My bikes: 1970`s Roberts - 1981 Miyata 912 - 1980`s Ocshner (Chrome) - 1987 Schwinn Circuit - 1987 Schwinn Prologue - 1992 Schwinn Crosspoint - 1999 Schwinn Circuit - 2014 Cannondale Super Six EVO
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,273
Mentioned: 415 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3815 Post(s)
Liked 3,345 Times
in
2,182 Posts
-----
Definite Arnie product.
Poor thing has certainly led a rough life.
Whoever did this to it should probably be prosecuted...
Hope it is your size Steve so we can follow your work with it.
-----
Definite Arnie product.
Poor thing has certainly led a rough life.
Whoever did this to it should probably be prosecuted...
Hope it is your size Steve so we can follow your work with it.
-----
#8
mycocyclist
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Monkey Junction, Wilmington, NC
Posts: 1,236
Bikes: 1964 Schwinn Paramount P-13 DeLuxe, 1964 Schwinn Sport Super Sport, 1972 Falcon San Remo, 1974 Maserati MT-1, 1974 Raleigh International, 1984 Lotus Odyssey, 198? Rossin Ghibli, 1990 LeMond Le Vanquer (sic), 1991 Specialized Allez Transition Pro, +
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 910 Post(s)
Liked 822 Times
in
453 Posts
In 1973 the serial was located on the left rear dropout.
Yours would be the 123rd scheduled frame for the month of 1973 corresponding to "K" leaving out "I". (Sorry, time change has fried that part of my brain.) Determine the Manufacturing Date
Oh, and congratulations! Great score and save!
Yours would be the 123rd scheduled frame for the month of 1973 corresponding to "K" leaving out "I". (Sorry, time change has fried that part of my brain.) Determine the Manufacturing Date
Oh, and congratulations! Great score and save!
Last edited by machinist42; 11-05-17 at 01:30 AM. Reason: erd
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 13,061
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4513 Post(s)
Liked 6,392 Times
in
3,676 Posts
Original Campy factory triple crank, quick release seatpost binder where the "big bolt" used to be, Campy headset and chrome Nervex fancy lugs = Bingo! we have a winner. Who did this to it and where are the pitchforks?!
#10
Master Parts Rearranger
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Portlandia's Kuiper Belt, OR
Posts: 4,404
Bikes: 1982 Trek 720 - 1985 Trek 620 - 1984 Trek 620 - 1980 Trek 510 - Other luminaries past and present
Mentioned: 221 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1556 Post(s)
Liked 2,024 Times
in
989 Posts
Excellent call on the Paramount. As an owner of a '74, everything screamed Paramount, and a P15 (like mine) at that. Crazy! I do like the color, oddly enough. The decals etc trying to dissuade others and/or the owner from thinking it is one? Is this one amazing trolling effort? I was certainly muttering WTF under my breath when looking at it. Regardless, you now have a Schwinn Paramount!! What do you want to do with it? Restore it to its rightful decals, just ride it, think on it for a while, ???
#11
Freewheel Medic
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: An Island on the Coast of GA!
Posts: 12,886
Bikes: Snazzy* Schwinns, Classy Cannondales & a Super Pro Aero Lotus (* Ed.)
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1455 Post(s)
Liked 2,197 Times
in
963 Posts
It certainly has all the hallmarks of a P15. Pull the fork and see if there is the same serial number stamped into the steering tube.
As a comparison, check my '71 P13 rear brake bridge to yours. Of course the P13 was lower and closer to the wheel, but they were built and brazed the same.
As a comparison, check my '71 P13 rear brake bridge to yours. Of course the P13 was lower and closer to the wheel, but they were built and brazed the same.
__________________
Bob
Enjoying the GA coast all year long!
Thanks for visiting my website: www.freewheelspa.com
Bob
Enjoying the GA coast all year long!
Thanks for visiting my website: www.freewheelspa.com
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Richmond VA area
Posts: 2,618
Bikes: '00 Koga Miyata Full Pro Oval Road bike.
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 475 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
Someone either didnt know what it was when they repainted/re-decal'd it, or simply liked Raleigh better than Schwinn, I'm guessing. Hats off to you for spotting it OP, I sure wouldnt have. Nice find for sure. Hopefuly you got it for a song?
#13
verktyg
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,030
Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1980s DeRosa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA SBDU Team Pro
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1036 Post(s)
Liked 1,238 Times
in
654 Posts
Looked at some 1970's Paramounts this afternoon. I'd say that it's an early 70's P-15 Paramount.
Around 1972, Nervex Professional crowns like on this ersatz Raleigh had been discontinued. That's why I came up the that date.
Around 1972, Nervex Professional crowns like on this ersatz Raleigh had been discontinued. That's why I came up the that date.
__________________
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
#14
Senior Member
The paint looks to be in pretty good shape, are the decals under the clear coating?
I am envious, these are the most fun types of finds...
I am envious, these are the most fun types of finds...
#15
Banned.
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 398
Bikes: Swobo Sanchez 3x1
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 137 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
yeah holy cow! what an awesome find! what did you pay if i may ask?
its incredible to imagine everything this bike has been through.... how did such a nice bike end up in the hands of people who obviously didn't have a clue. a lot of rough times, a lot of secrets. i think you have an obligation to take care of her now.
its incredible to imagine everything this bike has been through.... how did such a nice bike end up in the hands of people who obviously didn't have a clue. a lot of rough times, a lot of secrets. i think you have an obligation to take care of her now.
#16
Semper Fi
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12,942
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1172 Post(s)
Liked 358 Times
in
241 Posts
Poor bike, someone had an identity crisis they projected on to the bike. I’m in the “good for you” camp too.
Bill
Bill
__________________
Semper Fi, USMC, 1975-1977
I Can Do All Things Through Him, Who Gives Me Strength. Philippians 4:13
Semper Fi, USMC, 1975-1977
I Can Do All Things Through Him, Who Gives Me Strength. Philippians 4:13
#17
Forum Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kalamazoo MI
Posts: 20,652
Bikes: Fuji SL2.1 Carbon Di2 Cannondale Synapse Alloy 4 Trek Checkpoint ALR-5 Viscount Aerospace Pro Colnago Classic Rabobank Schwinn Waterford PMount Raleigh C50 Cromoly Hybrid Legnano Tipo Roma Pista
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3093 Post(s)
Liked 6,609 Times
in
3,788 Posts
#19
Mr. Anachronism
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Somewhere west of Tobie's
Posts: 2,087
Bikes: fillet-brazed Chicago Schwinns, and some other stuff
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 526 Post(s)
Liked 256 Times
in
165 Posts
Lugs and fork crown match this '72 P15-9. A friend's '73 has a different crown. Pulling the fork may yield more clues, including how the headbadge is attached and whether the serial number matches.
P1010945.jpg
P1010949.jpg
P1010945.jpg
P1010949.jpg
__________________
"My only true wisdom is in knowing I have none" -Socrates
"My only true wisdom is in knowing I have none" -Socrates
#20
feros ferio
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 21,800
Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1393 Post(s)
Liked 1,331 Times
in
837 Posts
"I'd rather have what I don't need than need what I don't have." -Fred Sanford
"It's better to know me and not need me than to need me and not know me." -- George "King" Stahlman, bail bondsman
Nice P-15. I was sorely tempted by a green P-15 during last year's bicycle fix-up for charity project at the Del Mar Fairgrounds.* I cleaned and tuned it up, installed new brake pads and tires, and put it out on the display floor for some lucky charity recipient to receive, instead of pulling off the wheels and stashing it in the trunk of my car.
__________
*San Diego area BF members -- PM me if interested in volunteering this December. We collect used bicycles and clean and repair them for local needy children and adults. We usually end up with 300 to 500.
"It's better to know me and not need me than to need me and not know me." -- George "King" Stahlman, bail bondsman
Nice P-15. I was sorely tempted by a green P-15 during last year's bicycle fix-up for charity project at the Del Mar Fairgrounds.* I cleaned and tuned it up, installed new brake pads and tires, and put it out on the display floor for some lucky charity recipient to receive, instead of pulling off the wheels and stashing it in the trunk of my car.
__________
*San Diego area BF members -- PM me if interested in volunteering this December. We collect used bicycles and clean and repair them for local needy children and adults. We usually end up with 300 to 500.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 4,481
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1830 Post(s)
Liked 3,384 Times
in
1,584 Posts
Definitely a diamond in the rough! This ought to give you something to work on during the winter.
So what is the plan?
At first glance, it seems like you'd want to get the rear brake cable stop (on the top tube) brazed back on. Seems like this, along with the other rust, would call for a paint job.. or a good job of touch-up painting.
How's the chrome? There's plenty of rust on that poor bike, so I'm guessing that the chrome has suffered too.
Let us know what your plans are, and how things work out! Everyone deserves a bike with shiny chromed Nervex lugs!
Steve in Peoria
So what is the plan?
At first glance, it seems like you'd want to get the rear brake cable stop (on the top tube) brazed back on. Seems like this, along with the other rust, would call for a paint job.. or a good job of touch-up painting.
How's the chrome? There's plenty of rust on that poor bike, so I'm guessing that the chrome has suffered too.
Let us know what your plans are, and how things work out! Everyone deserves a bike with shiny chromed Nervex lugs!
Steve in Peoria
#22
weapons-grade bolognium
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Across the street from Chicago
Posts: 6,347
Bikes: Battaglin Cromor, Ciocc Designer 84, Schwinn Superior 1981
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 985 Post(s)
Liked 2,380 Times
in
893 Posts
@Steve Whitlatch - yr size, yes? Nice grab - the possibilities intrigue the mind.
#23
Decrepit Member
K73123 is the 123rd Paramount frameset scheduled for production during the month of October, 1973. It appears to be a P15-9.
Why the heck would anyone paint a Paramount to look like a Raleigh?
Why the heck would anyone paint a Paramount to look like a Raleigh?
#24
52psi
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 4,015
Bikes: Schwinn Volare ('78); Raleigh Competition GS ('79)
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 790 Post(s)
Liked 802 Times
in
391 Posts
Good eye, Steve!
(And good job, "Are You Looking for One of These...?" thread!!)
Didn't want to paint it to look like a Varsity. It's called self-respect.
(And good job, "Are You Looking for One of These...?" thread!!)
Didn't want to paint it to look like a Varsity. It's called self-respect.
__________________
A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
#25
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Thank you all for your responses and confirmation that it is a Paramount. I remeber saying a few weeks back that the only way I could own one again is if I purchased one for someone that had no clue what it is. Well looks like that has come true. I just imagined it would be an old man who had one hanging in his garage since 1973 all covered in cob webs.
I stripped off the parts and found that it was indeed originally Opaque Blue. It is my size as well. This will be my most extensive project if I decide to go through with a full restoration. I have Schwinn Rando bars and the proper Weinmann Brakes that would be original to this model. I got period correct wheels as well.
The chrome lugs are perfect, crown looks great, chrome on the forks is a bit scratched but shines. The rear chrome is dull. Looks like it was hit with coarse steel wool. I used aluminum foil and WD 40 to clean it up a bit but it needs to be polished up a bit.
I used some steel wool on some rust spots and it does not seem to be deep. That is a plus. Will need a respray because, well, what good is there riding an ugly Paramount?
I am not sure how much it will cost to fix the top tube cable stop? Any rough estimates anyone?
I stripped off the parts and found that it was indeed originally Opaque Blue. It is my size as well. This will be my most extensive project if I decide to go through with a full restoration. I have Schwinn Rando bars and the proper Weinmann Brakes that would be original to this model. I got period correct wheels as well.
The chrome lugs are perfect, crown looks great, chrome on the forks is a bit scratched but shines. The rear chrome is dull. Looks like it was hit with coarse steel wool. I used aluminum foil and WD 40 to clean it up a bit but it needs to be polished up a bit.
I used some steel wool on some rust spots and it does not seem to be deep. That is a plus. Will need a respray because, well, what good is there riding an ugly Paramount?
I am not sure how much it will cost to fix the top tube cable stop? Any rough estimates anyone?
__________________
My bikes: 1970`s Roberts - 1981 Miyata 912 - 1980`s Ocshner (Chrome) - 1987 Schwinn Circuit - 1987 Schwinn Prologue - 1992 Schwinn Crosspoint - 1999 Schwinn Circuit - 2014 Cannondale Super Six EVO
My bikes: 1970`s Roberts - 1981 Miyata 912 - 1980`s Ocshner (Chrome) - 1987 Schwinn Circuit - 1987 Schwinn Prologue - 1992 Schwinn Crosspoint - 1999 Schwinn Circuit - 2014 Cannondale Super Six EVO