gkamieneski

I have had 2 spokes break in my Fulcrum Racing 5 front wheel, and it has prompted me to search for a new alu rim brake wheelset. I have had a couple break in the rear as well, but that doesn't concern me as much as having a front wheel go "bang" and immediately rub the brakes. Many years of racing and I never had a front wheel failure.

I have been looking at DT Swiss P1800 wheels as well as HED Ardenne RA Pro wheels. The latter wheelset is probably $300 more but for weight and performance they seem similar to me.

Welcome opinions and good/bad reviews.

base2 

I'm not sure what your budget is or the reasons you are drawn to the DT's in particular...But Hunt has these that weigh over a half pound less.

https://us.huntbikewheels.com/produc...-31deep-24wide

(They are also 4oz & $400 less than the HED's)

maddog34

price a hub rebuild on both brands, including any special tools needed, and availability of the parts and tools.

on a personal note.. i've seen too many premature bearing failures on DT Swiss MTB hubs, and the finish falls off due to under-paint Oxidation... not a fan of their Special Tool cost or availability, either..

FBinNY 

Since you've experienced failures on your low spoke wheels, especially the almost unhead of front spoke breakage, consider that you might do better with a pair classic 32 spoke wheels.

The beauty is that you choose hubs, rims & spikes individually to end up with light wheels EXACTLY suited to your needs and taste.

A fringe benefit is that wheels like this are much less likely to become unrideable with the loss of a single spoke.

matt92037

How wide of tires do you want to run? Fulcrums and DT’s are a little narrow. If you are interested in running 28’s I would go with 20-21mm internal diamater rims.

These are a solid value and reasonably lite.

https://boydcycling.com/products/rou...brake-wheelset

HEDS are great too but wait until they have their 15% coupons.

Bill Kapaun

Do these use a proprietary spoke?
If not, why not respoke with a slightly stouter spoke?

bluehills3149

I'm a big fan of conventional 32 J-spoke wheels. Sure, they may weigh a little more but if you break a spoke while riding you can usually back off your brakes (or not if using disks) and keep riding. Also, it's a snap buying cheap replacement spokes unlike some of the propriety designs that are hard to track down (like Mavic Exalith).

delbiker1 

I cannot comment on the DT Swiss, but I do have 2 sets of Hed wheels. One is the Ardennes RA Performance, but with disc brakes. They are an outstanding set of wheels. I also have a set of Belgium Plus laced to Ultegra 6800 hubs. I bought them used, they are built more sturdy with 32 spokes both front and rear. Again, outstanding wheelset. They are not cheap, but IMO, worth the dollars.

Lombard

I agree with lacing Belgium Plus rims to Ultegra with a 32 spoke count. Breaking spokes on a front wheel is quite unusual with rim brake wheels.

Bike Gremlin

This.
Though I would go with 36 spokes (narrows the choice of rims and hubs nowadays, but decent ones can still be sourced).

Relja

Lombard

36 spokes are overkill unless you are over 250 lbs. 32 spokes will give you a good strong wheel.

Schweinhund

I have a set of EA50 wheels. I managed to break a spoke nipple in the rear wheel and it didn't move, stayed in true. Yes it's a heavy wheel

gkamieneski

No question the 32 hole front wheel would eliminate this problem, however at my weight (182 lbs) and racing experience one would think I could run some of these lighter wheelsets. Fulcrum Racing 5s use 18 straight pull bladed spokes. The next wheelset I think I will want at least 20 spokes in the front wheel.

FBinNY 

32h wheels don't have to be heavier.

On low spoke count wheels the rim needs to be stiffer to offset the stresses that the longer spans between spokes cause.

Also, the wheels strength relates to the total spoke strength --- number x cross section, so the potential added weight of additional spokes can be offset with thinner spokes, with no loss in strength.

All in all it's entirely possible to build lighter with more spokes.

FWIW - Race wheels were already very light when low count wheels were first introduced. The rational wasn't weight, but air drag.

My front road wheel ----- 269g tubular rim, 32 15/17g on Record hub. Weight wise it beats most if not all low count fronts. And it's bulletproof against NYC crappy pavements.

Lombard

^^^This.^^^

Lombard

These are a great bang for the buck. 24F/28R spoke lacing and only 1455g. They have a good reputation:

https://bicyclewheelwarehouse.com/Bl...Wheel-Set.html

Atlas Shrugged

Or just get a modern set of wheels. These are light and very strong.

https://eastoncycling.ca/products/ea90-sl-wheels

Industry and most riders have moved on from the traditional 32 or 36 J spoke wheels for a reason. These forums skew heavily toward older riders and vintage tech. I even tour on 28 spoke wheels without issues.

Jeff Neese

Spokes almost always break due to uneven tension. You might consider taking your wheels to an experienced wheelbuilder, and have them do a complete de-tension and then re-tension the spokes and true the wheel. Note that not every bike shop has a good "wheel guy". You don't need to replace wheels just because of broken spokes.

Bike Gremlin

It depends on the spoke quality and rim stiffness too.

Generally (with good quality components), yes, I agree that 32 spokes can make a strong wheel, and there is a point of diminishing returns. However, I'd argue that 32 spokes is not the point where it makes sense to add a few more, as a bit of extra strength and a margin of safety (especially in case a spoke breaks - with 36 spokes, you often won't even get a rim brake rub if one spoke breaks). The additional air drag and weight of the 4 extra spokes is not that big (unless you are racing, in which case even 32 might be "too many").

As far as I can tell, there seems to be a fascination with low spoke counts and a prevalent opinion that wheels with fewer spokes are somehow "lighter, faster, better." For non competitive cycling (even for amateur competition I'd argue), going below 36 spokes makes sense only if you can't source decent-quality components with 36 holes in 'em.

Relja

Lombard

Well there is this perception that lower spoke wheels look sexier. And as well all know, sex sells.

This is worth a read:

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debu...ness_3449.html

FBinNY 

I'm not going to debate 32 vs 36 spokes, something I consider to be a question of personal preference. However, sometimes a historical context helps.

BITD (up until the late sixties) race wheels were just about exclusively built with 15g spokes, both DB and plain gauge. In fact those of us old enough to be building wheels back then remember that Campy Record hubs were drilled for 15g and forcing a 14g spokes through was a royal pain. For those few wanting stouter wheels for touring or whatever, I used to use a 2.4mm reamer on the hubs to make my life easier.

For what it's worth the vast bulk of wheels I built then were 15g DB and I used 14g only for right side rear, or for loaded touring wheels. I used to build 36h 14g butted wheels for tandems and guaranty them for 3,000+ mile tours. These days I still build mostly lighter wheels than typical, even for clients who keep asking why I could do so if their stouter wheels aren't holding up.

BTW- the myth that spokes break because of uneven or low tension persists, even without a mechanism clearly explained. (IMO correlation isn't causation without an understood mechanism). On a decently built wheel spoke failure will be from fatigue. Given the properties of steels used, that fatigue happens sooner with repeated flexing in the critical near yield zone. So, the easiest way to shorten spoke life is to build wheels with a dead load close to the yield limit, which is exactly what builders tend to do these days.

Lombard

Are you sure that is a myth? From my understanding, if tensions are too low, spokes will flex more which causes fatigue to happen sooner. Of course overtensioning has its implications too, but mostly for the limits of the rim, not the spokes.

Jeff Neese

It's not a myth. When some spokes are tight and others are loose, it's the tight ones that are carrying the extra load. Then some stress exceeds the tensile strength and it breaks. It's certainly possible to true a wheel and have many of the spokes too loose. That's what tensiometers are for. I know some guys claim to be able to do it be feel, or by "plucking" but I only use a wheelbuilder that does a final check with a tensiometer. Proper tension is the most important thing for strong wheels.

On a properly built wheel and with stainless steel spokes, you are never exceeding the fatigue limit and so the spokes have a theoretically infinite lifespan (just like a steel frame). And if you are exceeding the fatigue limit of stainless steel spokes, your aluminum rims are going to fail way before the spokes do. Naturally all bets are off in the case of corrosion or damage of any kind.

FBinNY 

Yes, at least in so far as many, if not most apply it nowadays.

For example, take your post and the one immediately following. They posit two diametrically opposed theories regarding the effects of uneven tension. So, the first question that might be asked is, "are the spokes most likely to break from uneven tension the slacker or tighter ones, and why?" My objection to the even tension hype is that it's leading people to be unnecessarily focused on even tension. Not that it's bad, just that one doesn't have to obsess over it.

Spokes have a working tension range such that they are sufficiently elongated to allow relaxing without ever being slack, while minimally (or never) being cycled within the near yield range where the fatigue life shortens. Note that I focus on elongation vs. tension, which is why it's critical to select spokes according to the actual application. It is only necessary that all spoke tensions are within this band, and only outliers on either side will be problematic.

For example on a highly dished rear, it's difficult to meet both conditions on both flanges if using the same spokes. However, by using thinner spokes on the slacker side, both sides can be brought closer to the optimal working range, creating more margin of error. With proper matching of spokes to the application, a builder creates a wider working range and can therefore reduce the need to bring tensions uniform within a narrow band. I'm not saying that we can ignore even tension, just reminding folks that there's more margin that the myth implies, and choices of components control their margins of error.

Another reason that I call it a myth is the corollary that you mentioned which is that less tight wheels flex more. That's flat out wrong. The relationship between stress (load) and strain (deflection) in steel is constant. So for a given change in load a spoke (or the wheel it's built into) will deflect the same amount regardless of the starting point (within the working range).

One problem is is that good builders have a number of good habits, which aren't necessarily equally important. One of the most important is stress relieving the finished wheel, which relaxes the spoke slightly and helps it center within it's working range.

If I were to rank the most important considerations that determine a quality wheel they probably would be.
1- proper selection of spokes
2- proper consideration of the elbow/flange interface, including cold setting to relax the elbow to the actual spoke path.
3- proper stress relief of the finished wheel with minimal work afterward.
4- reasonably even tension, which may be more or less important based on what one calls reasonable.

As I've said before, BITD high quality wheels were built with 15g DB plated spokes (quality SS spokes came later). Rims were light and the wheels held up to hard use. 14g spokes were only used for sprinters, and "truck" (cheap utility) bikes. As more people started assuming that stronger spokes meant stronger wheels folks moved to 14g, which started causing rim issues. Still today there are a decent number of people who still believe that.

Over 50 years of building wheels for folks with chronic wheel issues, the 2 most frequent comments I'd hear is "I'm breaking spokes as is, how can these built with lighter spokes ever hold up?" and "These are too loose, all the wheels I've had were MUCH tighter" My standard answer was that how could expect different results if I follow the same path that has failed in the past.

Atlas Shrugged

Given all these explanations and theories why is it modern low spoke count high tension wheels are so durable and problem free. All current performance bikes road as well as gravel none use old school 32 spoke much less 36 spoke wheels. Warranties provided with modern wheels was unheard of with legacy wheels.