unterhausen

Can I interest you two in a tutorial about how to put someone on your ignore list?

chaadster

Boy, the CarBack is not an attractive unit to my eye. Not that Varia, Gardia, or Magene are either; I guess I’m hoping an Italian gets in the game and designs something elegant. Varia looks like a pawpaw dangling out the back. I know there’s not a lot of leeway to work with, but one can dream.

That CarBack is USB-C is the most attractive thing about it. Just last weekend I forgot to pack out the USB mini (or whatever) for the Varia— well, it was a case of cable misidentification— and was saved only because my clubmate brought this huge power block tower contraption and a tangle of cables. It would be great to be able to eliminate a cable. It would be cheaper just to buy that Trek charging box, though…

njkayaker

This is confusing. You call the radar device a “display” but it’s not a display. The head unit is the display.

Anyway, no, the Garmin radar device doesn’t have “more things to show”.


These (changes for “colors and distance alerts”) would be features of the head unit. Not the radar device. The radar device certainly isn’t transmitting what color to use on the head unit (which could be monochrome). It seems the only display option Garmin head units provide is which side to display the dots (regardless of what company’s radar unit you are using).

The different radar devices provide the same standard data, which is how they all work with Wahoo and Garmin head units.

The Trek device provides additional data about lateral position but no head unit can display that data (at present).

It might be possible to write an app for the Garmin head units to show the extra data. Garmin is the only company that allows for custom apps. (Hammerhead/Karoo allow for custom apps (since it’s Android) but not officially (AFAIK).)

Troul 

It was meant to refer to the garmin radar projecting to the garmin headunit display.

njkayaker

Yes, I got that. It’s not the right way to refer to the radar device. “Projecting” isn’t a great word to use either.

Again, display options are options on the head unit.

All the different radar devices are providing the same data. That’s why you can mix-and-match head units and radar devices. (Manufacturers of these are not going to be able to ask head unit manufacturers to make programming changes.)

Garmin head units don’t provide many display options. The only thing appears to be on which side of the screen the “cars” are displayed.

Troul 

at the end of the day, they are all just electronic devices.

njkayaker

Still no reason to be wrong about them. And you brought it up.

Troul 

My main interest is what the competition will respond with now that Trek entered the radar market....

Koyote

I already had this whole conversation with him. It got us nowhere. Remember that this is bf, so no one ever admits to being mistaken about anything.

Troul 

that statement is inaccurate, see post # 11. Not sure why you have to create an unnecessary argumentative situation.

howaboutme

I'll get this back on track. I see no reason to give up my Bryton Gardia R300L for this.

Koyote

Okay, so let's go there.

Aside from the obvious factors -- longer battery life and longer range -- I can't think of much that I'd want added to my Varia's capabilities -- though that could just reflect my lack of imagination. It'd be great if there were some way for a radar unit to tell me not just that a vehicle is approaching, but also whether it is going to hit me, but I don't think this is technically possible as it would require a path prediction (which is difficult) or even a video feed to the head unit (which is difficult and would destroy battery life). And as njkayaker and I have already pointed out, anything involving the display configuration would be done on the head unit -- not on the radar unit.

Regardless, Trek's entry to the market is promising, as it is a much larger player than Bryton and hence represents real competition which might push Garmin to improve Varia somehow.

I suspect your aesthetic preferences are a couple standard deviations from the mean. Most people in this market are primarily interested in safety.

njkayaker

The main head units are Garmin, Wahoo, and Hammerhead. How would the Trek have an "ability to interface better" with all of these? The software on the head units isn't being changed.

So, you care but don't care.

Other people might have some interest in how these things actually work even if you aren't. (You also went on about not being wrong.)

The competition won't do anything (for a while anyway). (No one would have been able to guess that this was your "main interest".) Being clear/correct about how these work is kind of important in any discussion of competition.

The Garmin Varia is the same price. The distinctive advantage the Trek device has is the lateral position but that's only viewable on the phone app. I think most of the people using these are not using phones. It's not clear how useful this will be in the real world (most passes don't include full lane changes). It's not clear that the Trek device is better than the Varia.

While Garmin and others might lose a few sales to Trek, it's not clear it would be worth the effort of accelerating development of a replacement device with significantly compelling improvements.

Koyote

Yes, this. It almost seems as if Trek got this to market, and then realized that it adds nothing beyond Varia's capabilities -- so they fudged the detection distance (according to the first few brief reviews) and added a phone app that will be used by very few customers. (I mean, who buys a $200 radar tail light when they don't already own a head unit?)

Troul 

This is kinda how I'm looking at it.

njkayaker

Upthread, it was said that the Trek unit makes the seller more money than the Garmin unit. It's a $200 thing that can be added to the pile of new stuff for people already spending $$ for a new Trek bike. It's less complicated than developing/supporting a Trek head unit.

Using phones is becoming more common (maybe, more so for less experienced cyclists). Having a phone app makes it possible to sell the radar to people who don't even know what a head unit is. The phone app makes it easier to sell than having to say "well, you also need to buy a $300 head unit for this to be useful".

The components that one would use in a recently-designed unit might be better than what was available to Garmin when they designed the Varia so "long ago". So, things like changes and range might just come along for the ride. It wouldn't be surprising to play-up those improvements (even if marginal) for marketing.

Koyote

Oh, yes, definitely a good business move for Trek. The typical Garmin cycling item has only a 25% (or so) markup from wholesale to retail -- e.g., a $600 1040 Edge computer probably cost the dealer around $480. That's a pretty thin margin. An LBS would probably prefer to sell the Trek radar unit (esp if it performs as well as Garmin) just for the likely larger margin.

njkayaker

It might be a somewhat easy sale to people "afraid of cars" (but who wouldn't necessarily want to spend $$ on an head unit they might not understand, especially, against familiar smartphone apps).

Note that Garmin has a phone app for the Varia.

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/716691

Koyote

I've had the Varia for a couple years, and didn't know about that app.

So it looks like the Trek unit adds nothing to the marketplace.

njkayaker

I knew about it, forgot about it, and remembered it for this thread.

Might be kind of clever since it opens up the radar to people who don't want to buy an "expensive" head unit.

It doesn't have to (that might not even be the intention) beyond shifting money from Garmin to Trek and its sellers.

I wonder if these are all using the same sensor. It seems likely Garmin is using an "off the shelf" component like it does for the GPS chips it uses in its head units.

Trek's product might cause the prices of these to drop a bit.

unterhausen

I looked up what the sensor on the varia looks like, and it's hard to believe it's a standard sensor. I wish I could find a picture that's good enough to determine which chip they are using.

njkayaker

It's possible that Garmin is using its own censor and the others are using an off-the-shelf component. There are 4 (at least) manufacturers. I doubt all of them are making their own sensor.

The antennas are different.

https://www.mtbr.com/attachments/p4080497-jpg.1251210/

https://device.report/m/d4c2a107e007...05bb321ba5.pdf

PeteHski

Garmin even has a dedicated Varia display unit too. So you can use a Varia without a GPS or a phone. I guess this caters for commuters and casual cyclists who don’t have a GPS unit or want their phone on the bars.

njkayaker

"Had". It appears they don't sell it any more.

Looks like it was sold as a package (the display and the radar). It would cost more than just the radar. It’s possible that people using phones on their bikes are more interested in the radar. Maybe, casual cyclists not using their phones weren’t interested (the package could have been more than they wanted to spend).

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/518151c

Didn't know about it.

PeteHski

Yeah, it was never advertised much. I guess there wasn’t enough demand. But it shows that they were aiming at a market for the Varia beyond racers who would have a dedicated head unit as a matter of course. I guess the phone app was preferred by the more casual Varia users or simply that it is only racers and club cyclists who are actually buying the Varia. It is a fairly expensive gadget that many casual cyclists will be totally unaware of.