Jan Feetz

Study: Cycling daily reduces obesity - unless it's an e-bike

3alarmer 

...yes. My point was that they are being made and sold as bicycles, at least here in the United States.
If you can link me to the DOT regulation requirements for whether they can be legally sold as "bicycles", I would be grateful.

All those "other things" you reference are subject to much more regulatory oversight here.

Polaris OBark

That is because what is "dumb" is it is the same logical fallacy that leads you to conclude the mere presence of a $13 throttle transforms an e-bike into a moped.

Is it a moped when I attach a throttle but don't press it down? Is it a moped if I press it down while I pedal? Is it a moped if I don't attach the throttle but the controller is hard-wired to recognize a throttle if some time in the future I should choose to plug it in? Is it a moped if I attach the throttle to the handlebars but unplug the wire that connects it to the controller?

What if I purchase Trek's e-caliber, which has a removable battery and motor? Can I ride the resulting mountain bike where only conventional mountain bikes are allowed? (Trek's advertising propaganda suggests this is so.) I can do the same (and plan to) with my conversion. If I take the battery off and replace the motor with the original crankset, I am back to a conventional bikepacking rig.

Where do you draw the line?

This isn't nearly as simple as your simple-minded definition of a "moped" suggests.

Maelochs

As I understand it ... . if the power exceeds the legal limit, they are marketed as Off-Road .... where there are no such limits.

People can "illegally" operate them on public roads, because people know that cops won't care and really cannot tell so long as the operator doesn't do anything stupid in front of the cops.

There are lot so f car parts which aren't "street-legal" (possibly because they affect the manufacturer's smog controls---anything changing exhaust or intake--has to be very closely regulated---or has to be sold with some sort of warning saying "Not for street use" or "for off-road use only" (which can mean a race track, not necessarily a trail.))

I assume the "Off Roads" not on the chart Pretty Pony posted is referring to that---the bikes have power far exceeding what is street-legal, so they are sold with the "Off Roads" proviso ... not the seller's fault if the buyer rides it to work on city streets.

I am sure a lot of states have licensing and registering regulations regarding some off-road vehicles, and not some others ..... so these over-powerful e-bikes seem to be sneaking by right now---not required to be licensed,and registered, which Vastly increases their popularity. And since a cop cannot tell by looking how powerful the motor is---as a cop can see that an off-road motorcycle with no lights or plate, or an ATV (three- or four-wheeler) is illegal on the road, immediately--people who want the fast e-bike but not the legal scrutiny are willing to pay near-motorcycle prices for what is really a small electric motorcycle.

No plates, no insurance, no license, no running afoul of your four DUIs or whatever ..... or just a fast, simple toy and tool for getting to work in town conveniently, without having to jump through hoops. The appeal is very evident to me--and I am sure to a lot of young people who cannot afford a car, (which comes with requirements of a license, insurance (very expensive if you are young and astronomical if you have a history of accidents or tickets) and a registration, all of which must be renewed.

Instead of riding the bus (which is not even a real option in a lot of communities) or riding a crapped out Walmart MTB or an urban assault bike or walking ... now a person can actually ride to work at half traffic speed, not be soaked in sweat upon arriving, and even have the dignity of a ride with a little "cool" factor.

I am surprised more aren't sold, but I guess for a poor kid, the entry price is still a little steep. I wonder how long til the "Buy Here, Pay Here" places offering financing (and re-selling the repo'd bikes the other guys couldn't afford) will spring up.

3alarmer 

.
...yes, this is about social justice. Nobody should have to commute on a regular, mechanical only bike, like I did. Do you ever go back and re-read the stuff you write ?

Polaris OBark

In my conversion kit, there are two sets of profile settings baked into the controller firmware. The user can select which one to use, or presumably move back and forth.

One is called "street". I assume that means "street legal." That is the one the control defaulted to when I set it up.

The other is called "race." The (very limited and circumspect) documentation says it is for off-road use, with the implication that it is not "street legal."

I bought the lowest-power kit available from this manufacturer, mainly because it would fit my unusual frame, and it offered the most natural pedal-assist.

Reynolds 

I have a simplistic and binary point of view:
A bicycle has no motor and is propelled by human power only.
If it has a motor, it's not a bicycle but a motorcycle.
Works for me.

Polaris OBark

I think that is the only sane, completely objective criterion.

If it has a motor, it is a motorized vehicle, ipso facto. Eventually, we are likely to see them regulated as such. The pedal assist motor vs. throttle-driven motor is a red herring. (I wouldn't call them motorcycles. Call them e-bikes, but treat them as a distinct and unique class of motorized vehicles, and regulate accordingly.)

PeteHski

Works for you in what sense?

PeteHski

Isn’t that already how e-bikes are treated?

Maelochs

@3alarmer----one last try .... what I find so hilarious is that you are so sure some folks are fighting with you, that even when they agree with you, you think yyou are in a fight.

As for social justice, and all that ... Man, do you even read what you write?

Anyway ... communication can be tricky.

Have a nice whatever you choose.

Pop N Wood

Dude, I linked you directly to the congressional record of how they defined the law

Perhaps this will add some clarity

https://reallygoodebikes.com/blogs/e...ty%20standards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

If they have pedals and are under 1 HP, they are defined as bicycles. Over that, they are motor vehicles and need the same things as a car to be driven on public roads.

Sounds like they got a bunch of Bike Forumn ebike haters together to define the "classes".

Jklotz

Our club has a few ebike rules:

1) No talking going up hills
2) Don't talk about which power level you are using, nobody cares
3) No going up to the front and pushing the pace, especially on climbs
4) Pull the group into strong headwinds if requested
5) Range anxiety is not to be discussed during a ride. Forgot to charge? Tough it up.

There are a few more I can't remember. They are meant to be humorous, in case you didn't get that.

Reynolds 

As a definition.

njkayaker

No, it's just dumb.

Stop saying dumb crap.

https://reallygoodebikes.com/blogs/e...ty%20standards

Class 2 e-bikes are pretty-much a definition of "moped with an electric motor".

=================================

The e-bikes with throttles are classified differently and are often treated differently than the e-bikes without throttles. This isn't something I made up.

Our bike club insurance doesn't cover e-bikes with throttles.

Note that the state laws took awhile to deal with them (and it's doesn't appear to be exactly settled everywhere).

Before 2020, only class1 e-bikes were allowed in NYC.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bi...s/ebikes.shtml

(There are also lots of e-bikes in NYC that people are not pedalling.)

njkayaker

You have to look at the state definitions (which are not all the same).

I suspect the classes came from the industry wanting to sell them in states that had different laws that would cover them.

prj71

Given the parameters of a certain mountain bike trail that I ride. ~28 mile loop and about ~4000 ft of elevation. If I did that same loop on an e-bike with pedal assist I would get less of a workout. Less calories would be spent, less watts would be required to pedal and I wouldn't feel as physically beat down at the end of the ride. If I kept that up my fitness level would also drop and my leg muscles would be weaker.

Riding a longer distance than ~28 miles with pedal assist still does not equal a better workout and more exercise. Having tried an e-bike already...near zero effort is required to pedal up hills.

Caveman

Is it?

3alarmer 

...dude, I explained to you in two separate posts why I think this was a bad piece of legislation, and to a piece by one representative of the major lobbying arm for the bicycle industry that contributed their input. I can't make you read the stuff, but this is exactly the result that always happens when an industry is represented in Washington by manufacturers, rather than end user interests. The interests of the two groups are sometimes similar, but often wildly divergent.

...and there it is. The end result of every thread on e-bikes that shows up outside the e-bikes forum. Every legitimate criticism is haters. Every time someone points out that maybe this is going in the wrong direction, in terms of speed and power, the response is some long screed about how the really dangerous ones are "no true e-bikes". Strawman arguments, distractions, taking the moral high ground....the list of fallacious argument in support of these by enthusiasts rivals the gun guys, both in irrationality and a refusal to accept that maybe self regulation by the manufacturing industry is not working very well.

Again, my question to you was:

I cannot go to a car dealer here, buy one, and drive it off the lot unregistered. I can't buy a standard IC motorcycle (or even an electric motorcycle) at a dealership, and drive it away unregistered. They are regulated at point of sale. I guess you did not respond directly because there is no response. But an e-bike that goes 40-45 MPH ? No problem.

Maybe you can't understand that as a legit criticism, but the eventual blowback will affect everyone who wants to use one. Maybe stop reading the industry literature, riding your 38mph top speed "e-bike", and try for a moment to look at this from a different POV. Or not, I don't care. It has already started happening in some places. Good luck out there, "in the bad part of town."

Polaris OBark

On a slightly more serious note, why don't bike clubs simply have e-bike specific group rides? Then the recreational e-bikers can by default ride together, and special cases where someone wants/needs to ride the e-bike on a regular bike ride can be evaluated individually and have rules strictly enforced?

3alarmer 

...there was a clear opportunity early on to clarify this, which you chose to ignore. Communication doesn't need to be tricky, it just gets that way when one of the parties involved chooses to make it so. I intend to have a wonderful day here, and might even take a nap, thanks.

Polaris OBark

No. There are many locales where nothing distinguishes a child's conventional bike from a Sur Ron.

Jklotz

Why? Our group rides have 3 guys on ebikes, never had a problem. We get along just fine. Hell, I can barley keep up sometimes even on a pedal assist ebike.

Are you insinuating I should not be allowed to ride with them?

Polaris OBark

Sometimes I really hate the internet. I'm not insinuating anything. This thread is not about YOU.

This reply wasn't even directed at you. The previous 3000000 posts are filled with hand-wringing about stuff like ebikes on conventional club rides. If people are that worried about it, why not have a separate e-bike group. Most clubs have A, B, C rides. Why not have A, B, C, E and G rides (E for e-bike, G for gravel)?

zandoval 

Thank You... That's it!

That's what it is...

Yep... I don't dislike e-bikes.

I just don't like e-motocyles with "Vestigial Pedals" being called bicycles.