Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Campagnolo Record Bottom Bracket Spindle Confusion

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Campagnolo Record Bottom Bracket Spindle Confusion

Old 12-06-23, 09:00 AM
  #1  
purpurite
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
purpurite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Aurora, Illinois
Posts: 115

Bikes: 2003 Litespeed Classic Ti, 1960 Frejus Supercorsa, 2015 Rocky Mountain Blizzard, 2001 Cannondale F700

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 136 Times in 56 Posts
Campagnolo Record Bottom Bracket Spindle Confusion

Here's the back story... I recently picked up a very cheap ($25) second/third-hand Campy Record crankset dated 1974 <4> and it came with a Campy English 68mm x 112mm bottom bracket. Turned out the reason it was so cheep was not because of the condition, but because it had a late 80s Record left side crank arm on it [41].

Around the same time, I brought home a wayward Frejus that had a complete (or what I thought was complete) EB Williams AB77 crankset and proprietary bottom bracket. Once I scraped away the years of grease and removed the BB from the frame, I found the Williams spindle (117mm) to be pitted and unusable, but also Campagnolo Italian cups, lock-ring and bearings.

I managed to find a perfect match '74 left arm on eBay and have now decided to put the Record crankset on the restored Frejus instead of looking for a new AB77 spindle that isn't wrecked. This started my journey into the bizarre and mysterious world of Campagnolo bottom bracket spindles. Holy crap in a can.

So now I'm looking for a 70 SS 120 in what I thought to be a 113mm wide spindle, and yet it seems like there are so many variations of lengths and dimensions, from bearing races and taper lengths, I'm just about paralyzed with confusion not wanting to have to just start randomly collecting a bunch of Italian Campy spindles to test.

Fitting the Record cranks to the 68mm spindle and Italian cups puts the inside of the crank arms way too close to the BB cups, even without bolting everything together. So on the English spindle I have, the tapered ends are not long enough for a 70mm BB shell. To make matters worse, it's going to be a crapshoot looking for a spindle with exact measurements on eBay when people can barely know how to use an Imperial ruler let alone a digital caliper.



What's the best way to get proper spindle length for this Italian frame? What questions should I be asking to sellers? Are there Campy spindles with longer tapered areas outside of the 70mm shell dimension? And what are the "thin" BB cups that change the dimensions of everything needed? Good grief, how am I going to find a spindle that works for this frame? Help!


For the photo hungry, here are the cranksets mentioned above...

Williams AB77


Campagnolo Record


purpurite is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 09:46 AM
  #2  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,244
Mentioned: 415 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3803 Post(s)
Liked 3,324 Times in 2,170 Posts
-----

your text does not mention if the bottom bracket cups you received are Record (R) serie or Nuovo Record (NR) serie

Record cups have thinner walls so that the spindles compatible with them have their bearing shoulders further apart than for the NR cups which have thicker walls so the bearing shoulders need to be closer together to compensate

from the images posted it "looks" like your cups are Record serie

the NR cups have helical splines on the edges of the spindle hole

for the matched pair of arms you created the correct spindle for an Italian dimension shell with a two plateau drive train is one marked 70-SS-120

page of catalogue Nr. 16 1968 -


-----

Last edited by juvela; 12-06-23 at 09:54 AM. Reason: addition
juvela is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 10:07 AM
  #3  
Mad Honk 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 2,940

Bikes: Paramount, Faggin, Ochsner, Ciocc, Basso

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1301 Post(s)
Liked 1,903 Times in 1,137 Posts
I'm thinking you want one of these. I bought these from Harry Havnoovian through his e-bay store. He has a stash of parts that are being sold a bit at a time. HTH, Smiles, MH

These don't really have any indication as to year of manufacture, but the size is correct for NR cups.
Mad Honk is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 10:21 AM
  #4  
purpurite
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
purpurite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Aurora, Illinois
Posts: 115

Bikes: 2003 Litespeed Classic Ti, 1960 Frejus Supercorsa, 2015 Rocky Mountain Blizzard, 2001 Cannondale F700

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 136 Times in 56 Posts
Originally Posted by juvela
your text does not mention if the bottom bracket cups you received are Record (R) serie or Nuovo Record (NR) serie

Record cups have thinner walls so that the spindles compatible with them have their bearing shoulders further apart than for the NR cups which have thicker walls so the bearing shoulders need to be closer together to compensate

from the images posted it "looks" like your cups are Record serie
the NR cups have helical splines on the edges of the spindle hole

for the matched pair of arms you created the correct spindle for an Italian dimension shell with a two plateau drive train is one marked 70-SS-120
Both the Italian and English cups I have are both rifled inside the spindle holes. Safe to assume these are both Nuovo Record bottom brackets? Does that change what spindle I need, and what should I be looking for?



Originally Posted by Mad Honk
I'm thinking you want one of these. I bought these from Harry Havnoovian through his e-bay store. He has a stash of parts that are being sold a bit at a time. HTH, Smiles, MH

These don't really have any indication as to year of manufacture, but the size is correct for NR cups.
Yup, I found his listings for new-old stock and used Campy spindles and that's what started this mass confusion. All of the "70-SS-120" spindles he is selling have different A, B and C measurements, as he describes them. The fact that the same part number spindles are all different sizes and dimensions is making me really confused, because now I believe that no matter what 70-SS-120 spindle I find, it's not going to fit properly.

Am I crazy?
purpurite is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 10:27 AM
  #5  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,827 Times in 1,995 Posts
The original configuration showed all kinds of possibilities- the adjustable cup was showing way too many threads- my hunch that ONE cup was Nuovo Record.

more info required to assist. The image of the Campagnolo crank assembly with no presentation of the spindle markings - just hides things.
image the cups showing the spindle ports from the inside and a slight angle.

the later year of the non drive side arm is of no functional difference.

do inspect both arms for cracks completely.
repechage is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 10:34 AM
  #6  
purpurite
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
purpurite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Aurora, Illinois
Posts: 115

Bikes: 2003 Litespeed Classic Ti, 1960 Frejus Supercorsa, 2015 Rocky Mountain Blizzard, 2001 Cannondale F700

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 136 Times in 56 Posts
Originally Posted by repechage
The original configuration showed all kinds of possibilities- the adjustable cup was showing way too many threads- my hunch that ONE cup was Nuovo Record.

more info required to assist. The image of the Campagnolo crank assembly with no presentation of the spindle markings - just hides things.
image the cups showing the spindle ports from the inside and a slight angle.

do inspect both arms for cracks completely.



No cracks on the Record pieces. Everything is in beautiful condition. I think it was stored in a closet for 40 years before I got it.

Yup, you're right, they are Nuovo Record, rifled inside the spindle holes.





And also correct about the bad fitment with the Williams spindle and cranks, with the NR cups. Could that have been a possible cause of the AB77 spindle pitting and failure?
purpurite is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 10:53 AM
  #7  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,827 Times in 1,995 Posts
The spindle bearing track failure is most likely from neglect, possible internal contamination from the frame. Not noted was the presence of a debris shield in the bottom bracket shell.
60+ years of use or more, unlikely the as purchased crank set up was original.
repechage is offline  
Likes For repechage:
Old 12-06-23, 10:58 AM
  #8  
3alarmer 
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26392 Post(s)
Liked 10,366 Times in 7,197 Posts
What's the best way to get proper spindle length for this Italian frame? What questions should I be asking to sellers? Are there Campy spindles with longer tapered areas outside of the 70mm shell dimension? And what are the "thin" BB cups that change the dimensions of everything needed? Good grief, how am I going to find a spindle that works for this frame? Help!
...you seem to be fixated on restring this bike with an old school cup and cone bottom bracket mechanism. Which is fine, if that's what you want. But by far the simplest way to mount that drank onto your Italian threaded frame is by using a sealed unit BB assembly, designed for mounting square taper cranks and in the Italian threaded variety. The spindle and cups and bearing races have already been assembled to fit your Italian BB shell, and all you need to pay attention to is the spindle length you order.

There used to be a source selling these on Amazon for around 15 bucks. But I see they are gone now, so they were probably closing out their stock, cheap. They work well for my New Record cranks, even with the slightly longer spindle. But FSA still makes and sells one in 113 that will probably work for you ...link. FSA puts out a good quality product.

If you're interested in going this route, search Amazon and e-bay using "Square Taper Bottom Bracket 36x24 Italian 115mm" or "113mm" and you will get some results. I don't routinely replace a good quality Campagnolo cup and cone BB mechanism, I just service them. But finding them used, in good condition, and with all the correct parts matched became increasingly difficult over the years. If they need replacing due to wear, or if the crank comes to me alone, I long ago switched to sealed units as replacements to make my life easier.

Those guys at Campagnolo went back and forth on their BB standards too many times, for this to make much it worth going original for me.
__________________
3alarmer is online now  
Likes For 3alarmer:
Old 12-06-23, 11:17 AM
  #9  
79pmooney
Senior Member
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,892

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4791 Post(s)
Liked 3,918 Times in 2,548 Posts
I don't have all the answers but an approach. Assuming a standard taper will work with those old Campy cranks - first see if that taper is (or close enough to) ISO or JIS. If JIS, you are in luck. Buy a cheap long Shimano BB. (Italian - is that possible? I don't know.) Install. Mount cranks. Measure the chainline. Note the left side crank clearance at the chainstay. Do the calcs to find the equivalent crank that gets yo the proper chainline and puts the left crank where you want it. (In spindle length and asymmetry, in mm.) Order said bottom bracket from Phil Wood.

You could do the same with a Miche BB (ISO) but it would be probably too short to mount the cranks. But you could install the BB, measure BB faces to the frame, then take out and install the cranks on the BB. Calculate chainline. Left crank would be harder to visualize. The Miche would cost twice the Shimano. (If it's a Pista one, you could send it to me when you are done!)

Phil Wood can make you whatever you need in either of those standards. Probably $200 for BB plus tools you will need. If you can find a Phil BB you can borrow, another approach would be to buy the Italian cups form Phil, install the borrowed BB, mount cranks and measure. (If cranks hit the BB or the BB shell, remove the BB and install the cranks as above.

You can also talk to the engineers at Phil. They are easy to talk to. I highly doubt they will have the answers to your situation because I suspect that if they have enough experience with old Campy, they know well the measurements were all over the place. Parts were made as sets by skilled machinists. That set was made to Campy quality. That Joe's set was not fully interchangeable with the set Bill made last year? Who cares? They went to different bikes.
79pmooney is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 11:19 AM
  #10  
purpurite
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
purpurite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Aurora, Illinois
Posts: 115

Bikes: 2003 Litespeed Classic Ti, 1960 Frejus Supercorsa, 2015 Rocky Mountain Blizzard, 2001 Cannondale F700

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 136 Times in 56 Posts
Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...you seem to be fixated on restring this bike with an old school cup and cone bottom bracket mechanism. Which is fine, if that's what you want. But by far the simplest way to mount that drank onto your Italian threaded frame is by using a sealed unit BB assembly, designed for mounting square taper cranks and in the Italian threaded variety.
I know, I know... I should just do what's easy. This isn't a 100-point restoration, and when it's done, it will have contemporary brake pads and tires and tubes and it's going to be rideable. It's not 100% period-correct already, so it's probably the right thing to do. I should just do the smart thing and make my life easier and go with a sealed cartridge BB, but "smart" and "easy" are not my middle names.

I think what I will end up doing is spending a little time seeing if finding a 70-SS-120 spindle that fits is possible, and then if common sense prevails, I will pick up one of the sealed cartridge BBs. I just found them on Colorado Cyclist for $4.99 each (SOLD OUT) which would have been nice.
purpurite is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 11:45 AM
  #11  
75lechamp 
Full Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Arvada, Colorado
Posts: 344

Bikes: 1975 Motobecane LeChampion (silver lilac), 1974 Motobecane Grand Jubile (red/black); 1975 Motobecane Team Champion (orange); 1982 Pinarello Professional (Exorcist Green); 1974 Raleigh Professional MkIV mink blue, 1974 Motobecane Grand Record blk/red

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked 749 Times in 172 Posts
I remember being in a similar position as you, it is very confusing to try to sort out. Not sure if you have seen this but it was helpful for me....

https://www.campyonly.com/history/re...ws_vol_1-2.pdf

Andy
75lechamp is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 11:46 AM
  #12  
Mad Honk 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 2,940

Bikes: Paramount, Faggin, Ochsner, Ciocc, Basso

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1301 Post(s)
Liked 1,903 Times in 1,137 Posts
purpurite ,
I just measured mine and the 113 length spindle is what you are looking for. The 17 and 19 measurements are the correct ones for a double chain ring set up. HTH Smiles, MH

Last edited by Mad Honk; 12-06-23 at 03:11 PM.
Mad Honk is offline  
Likes For Mad Honk:
Old 12-06-23, 04:57 PM
  #13  
bulgie 
blahblahblah chrome moly
 
bulgie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,985
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1172 Post(s)
Liked 2,567 Times in 1,072 Posts
It's not all that confusing really. If you narrow your seach to NR Italian Double (not track or triple) then there are only two choices, pre- and post-'78. I may be off by a year, but whenever they had to add the lip on the front derailer to sell in the USA, due to CPSC regulations. The lip required more space between the big chainring and the crank, so the spindle became 1.5 mm longer on the right, with 1 mm added on the left also I believe. The spacing of the cones stayed the same, so there's no difference between pre- and post-'78 cups. You just need the spindle to be of the same era as the cranks. A ruler, tape measure or calipers will distinguish a pre-'78 from a post-'78. If still unsure, buy a spindle from a knowledgeable seller like Mike Kone of Boulder Bike and tell him you need pre-'78. Oops I just looked and he doesn't have any in Italian at the moment. Someone here may know how/where to reliably get a pre-'78 spindle.

You can safely mis-match pre- and post-'78 parts if you know what you're doing and/or if you don't care that your chainline is off by 1.5 mm. Actually useful sometimes for special projects, but usually the correct spindle will give best results. Newer cranks on the older spindle might make the small chainring rub on the chainstay.

Buying some other brand, or even a modern cartridge, has its pitfalls too. For example most anything modern is symmetric left-right, where your Campy was meant to be longer on the right and will fit funny on a modern spindle.

On the subject of your Williams cranks: Way BITD, Phil Wood used to make BBs for odd cranks like yours by taking your spindle and modifying it for use in one of their cartridge BBs. No idea if they still offer that but you could ask. Anyone here know? Of course it would look like a Phil BB, with their special mounting rings visible from the outside, so you wouldn't be fooling anyone into thinking it was a Williams BB. But whatever you do, don't throw the Williams parts away.

AB-77 fan,
Mark B
bulgie is online now  
Old 12-06-23, 05:49 PM
  #14  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,827 Times in 1,995 Posts
A Phil answer would be good.
skeptical today though, would be a total custom. And lawyers are a different breed today. Every other radio advert is for an accident attorney, but I digress.

regarding spindles, one issue is folk think 70-SS is 70-SS-120… nope.

the concern of the non drive side being a problem as a much younger arm had the kids winding up the lids. Non issue.
repechage is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 06:17 PM
  #15  
3alarmer 
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26392 Post(s)
Liked 10,366 Times in 7,197 Posts
.
...I actually called the Phil Wood number, and spoketo someone 10 or 15 years ago, when replacing a BB for a NR crank from the late 70's or 80's.
That person put me on hold, went to talk with someone, then returned to tell me they would send me something in 113, that had JIS taper. It was closer to the original, apparently.

I've only done that once. Because it gets expensive if you do it on a regular basis. After riding it for a while, I sold that bike to someone else, and I imagine they've had no problems with it.

I've had zero issues using those Campy units that I linked to previously, with NR cranks. In fact, I bought three or four extras, before they went out of stock. I think they were made for some other Campy crankset, like maybe Centaur. They still show up on e-bay a lot, but at higher prices mostly. Maybe I'm missing something,
__________________
3alarmer is online now  
Old 12-06-23, 10:59 PM
  #16  
jeirvine 
Senior Member
 
jeirvine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Baltimore MD
Posts: 3,331

Bikes: '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '72 Gitane tandem, '72 Raleigh Super Course, '73 Raleigh Gran Sport, '73 Colnago Super, '76 Fiorelli Coppi, '78 Raleigh SBDU Team Pro, '78 Trek 930, '81 Holdsworth Special 650B, '86 Masi GC, ’94 Bridgestone RB-T

Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 786 Post(s)
Liked 517 Times in 280 Posts
Simply put, you'll need a 113mm spindle marked 70.

Here's my Campy spindle cheat sheet:

Italian 70mm BB:
Double -Pre CPSC: 113mm. Post: 115.5mm
Triple - Pre: 118mm. Post: 124mm

English/French 68mm BB:
Double - Pre: 112. Post: 114.5
Triple - Pre:117. Post: 123

Spc -- ≻ c - record
Ssa -- ≻ croce d'aune
Ssb -- ≻ chorus
Ssg -- ≻ athena
__________________
The man who dies with the most toys…is dead. - Rootboy
jeirvine is offline  
Likes For jeirvine:
Old 12-06-23, 11:18 PM
  #17  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,827 Times in 1,995 Posts
Originally Posted by 75lechamp
I remember being in a similar position as you, it is very confusing to try to sort out. Not sure if you have seen this but it was helpful for me....

https://www.campyonly.com/history/re...ws_vol_1-2.pdf

Andy
thanks! Pleased that campyonly link was still live.
repechage is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.