daihard 

I've been using the PD-EH500 (SPD/flat) pedals with the SH56 cleats for a few years. I don't use the flat sides all that often, but when I need to, they come in handy. I see some posters exrperienced accidental unclipping using the SH56 cleats, especially on rough terrains, but I ride almost exclusively on road and have never had that issue with mine. OTOH, I have had a few close calls where, had they been the SH51 cleats, I would have failed to unclip.

daihard 

I think this sums up this thread.

I've only been using the clipless system for a couple of years, but I love how it keeps my feet attached to the pedals at all times, especially while climbing and riding on pad pavement. I have dual-sided SPD/flat pedals so I _can_ ride flats when I need to, but that's about once a month, if not less often. If the clipless system does in fact help produce more power or increase pedalling efficiency, those would most likely benefit a mediocre rider like me.

Fredo76

I'm finally doing clipless, on a new step-through bike built partly for that purpose. After hip replacements, I had a lack of confidence with anything tricky on my old DF racing bike, so after restoration it went back to toe-clips and straps, but I ride them without cleats. I didn't have an auspicious beginning with SPD cleats, but I'm OK with them now after some experience.

I took a gamble on some road shoes from China on eBay in my size (46), and they fit like a glove and feel great. The BOA constrictors are pretty snazzy, too, and work well. They were $59 shipped iirc, so when I saw an all-black pair on sale for $30, I snapped them up too. I also got a stealth pair that look like regular sneakers and have the cleats recessed for easier walking, on sale at REI, and I wear those when riding to the post office or the doctor, or to a store.

OP, let us know what you get and what you think.

PeteHski

Just to be clear I'm an advocate of using clipless pedals and have been using them since the mid 80's when I had a pair of early Look pedals. But the idea that you can generate meaningful additional power from pulling on the upstroke has been repeatedly shown to be false. At least at any normal cadence and significant power. There are edge cases like standing start track sprints and maybe very low cadence climbing when gear limited. But the studies tend to focus more on normal cadence at high aerobic power.

The study you cited is literally the only one I've seen that hints at some potential advantage from pulling on the upstroke. But it's not obvious from the Abstract what they actually did. When they compared flats with clipless they appeared to find no difference until they specifically asked the riders to actively pull on their pedals with some "force feedback", whatever that means. There is also no definition of "pedal effectiveness". It says they rode at constant power and cadence, so are they talking about muscle usage or torque distribution?

The studies I've read focus on measuring power distribution throughout the stroke and they all look the same with positive torque on the downstroke and negative torque (from leg weight) on the upstroke. Again this is all at normal cadence and significant aerobic power. Pro and amateur riders all have the same torque distribution, but the pros do have less negative torque on the upstroke as they use their hip flexors more effectively.

I could cite these studies, but it would just be a repeat of the last dozen similar threads. Plus there will always be guys claiming that they produce extra power from pulling up. I don't really care, but it would be interesting to see some actual power distribution data to prove it can be done. That I have never seen yet.

The Chemist

I've used clipless pedals for more than 20 years now and whether or not they make a huge difference, I don't really care. I find it's more comfortable to ride long distances with them than without and that's really all that matters to me.

I just use Shimano PD-M520 pedals on both of my bikes - well built, durable, and cheap. Can't beat that combination.

t2p

^^^^ this

almost impossible (or impossible ?) to get a top / elite road shoe for flat pedals

lightweight rigid carbon soled shoes ... I don’t believe they exist for flat pedals ?

and a top shoe is significant - especially long tough road rides with significant climbing

noimagination

For me, the studies about whether using foot retention increases efficiency or power miss the point. Those factors may be important to racers, but for me using foot retention is about allowing me to more easily spin circles, to more easily use different muscle groups on a ride and to more easily spin at higher cadences without losing a pedal. For example, if I've been spinning circles for a while (so, not pulling up on the pedals, but unweighting, to a greater or lesser extent, the foot that is on the pedal that is on the upstroke) and my hip muscles are getting fatigued, I can switch to pushing more on the downstroke and put more stress on my quads - and, of course, vice versa - without also expending energy/attention on keeping my foot properly centered on the pedal. When I use flats I'm constantly making micro adjustments, and occasionally making fairly significant adjustments, to my foot position on the pedal. I guess I'm a ****z.

Is spinning circles with flats possible? Is spinning a high cadence possible with flats? Yes, of course, but I'm not a pro, I don't cycle 10's of thousands of miles a year, I get tired and sloppy, I'm not the most coordinated person in the world and I'm probably pretty low on the ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch muscles, so having foot retention makes cycling easier and more enjoyable. The occasions where I'm actually pulling up on the pedal are extremely rare (certainly fewer than 1x/month, and only for a few seconds at a time), and I'm not thinking about "efficiency", I'm thinking about raw power to get up and over the last few yards of that brief steep climb, or to beat that light when I'm in a gear that's a bit too high and I don't have time to downshift. Actually pulling up on the pedals probably is a net negative in the long run, but can be advantageous in the moment.

I like clipless pedals, they're far easier to use than clips and straps, and cycling is far more enjoyable for me using foot retention than not. Other people have different experiences, and that's fine. If the OP tries clipless and finds he/she doesn't like them, then at least they know.

(edit: oops, didn't realize that "s p a z z" is verboten)

DangerousDanR

I haven't seen it mentioned yet in this thread, but riding long distances on a tandem without some means of foot retention is a pain in the ankle. Or maybe some other anatomical part.

PeteHski

This puts it into perspective for the average rider. He didn’t intend to ride in sandals, but they didn’t appear to slow his average speed after he had to switch from his normal pro setup due to knee pain.

https://www.gearpatrol.com/outdoors/...-birkenstocks/

big john

I agree with everything you've written and have the same questions.

big john

Funny they don't mention pedals at all. Did he switch to flats or did he ride Birkenstocks on SDPs?

Remember Shimano SPD sandals? A friend used them for a while.

A forum member who was a cat 1 forgot his shoes at some race and rode in penny loafers on clipless pedals. I think he got third in the race.

PeteHski

He definitely used flat pedals with the sandals.

From another link to the same story:-

"He decided to ride in a pair of sandals he got yesterday and got new flat pedals yesterday as well to go with them," the team wrote on its website. "It didn’t seem to bother Lachlan too much though as his average speed remained the same and by day’s end he said his knee felt a lot better already."

https://www.bikeperfect.com/news/cli...-isnt-bothered

livedarklions

I think "try" is completely appropriate. If someone hates it from the get-go, they might just decide not to go "all in" at that point. OP owes no one other than themself a "fair chance" here, and it's up to OP to determine what is fair under the circumstances. .

Most people don't ever do a century ride, btw, so "a couple" as a requirement strikes me as rather odd.

livedarklions

The video linked by beng1 actually did a pretty good job of citing the various studies and what they do or don't cover. I haven't felt it necessary to post the citations contained there, if you want to, knock yourself out.

I'm a person who has never tried clipless because my experience with toe clips was essentially crippling to my ankles. The experiment is just not worth it to me. For the most part, I think the answers to OP's question (should I use clipless to increase speed?) have been along the lines of that OP probably won't notice much speed improvement, but that there's a lot of much more subjective advantages to clipless, so you still might want to try them. The studies that have been cited have generally been along the lines of showing there aren't dramatic speed differences between the different modes of pedals. If you're arguing with that, I think you should probably cite your sources.

Not sure why you would find "I tried them and didn't like them" offensive, maybe I missed the part where anyone was called an idiot.

indyfabz

"No. Try not. Do or do not. There is no try."--Jedi Master Yoda

livedarklions

Also Elizabeth Holmes, infamously.

It's a lot easier sentiment to have when all you have to do is look exasperated, wave your hands, and the broken space ship levitates.

Not to get too serious, but there's two very distinct different definitions of "try" being implicated here, basically it's the difference between "sampling" something and "attempting" something. I've always found the notion of an "acquired taste" to be somewhat comical.

.

rsbob 

One minor advantage of clipless is allowing me to use other muscle groups to (gasp) pull up, when my quads are feeling hammered and need a break. I don’t do this often but after a long climb, it’s nice to be able to switch to switch to a less efficient means while giving the quads a rest. Then it’s back to the quads.

seypat

Different strokes for different folks. There was a guy on my marathon training team one year that said he couldn't find a pair of running shoes that worked for him. After a couple of weeks he switched to a pair of sandals with a back achilles strap and the front strap that goes between the big/second toes. No socks. He did the rest of the training and the marathon in those sandals, over 600 miles worth. All I could think of when I saw him running in the sandals is I wouldn't want to meet him in a dark alley!

Eric F 

Not long ago, a BF'er talked about having a preference for flat pedals and Crocs for long, multi-day rides. He likes the ability to move his foot around to different parts of the pedal. I'm very much a stiff, light, clipped-in shoe kind of guy (on all my bikes), but I found his preference to be...umm...interesting.

livedarklions

Seriously, you never know what might work best for someone else's feet.

genejockey 

That kind of defeats the purpose of being a know-it-all.

ofajen

My observation is that the front to back length of a flat pedal and the relative thickness and stiffness of the shoe to resist bending at the front and back pedal edges are critical to whether a shoe seems stiff enough with flat pedals.

With sufficiently long pedals (typical modern flats at say 100mm or so rather than metal touring pedals at 60mm), the “shoe stiffness” bar isn’t that high.

My Lem’s Primal 2s are my favorite walking shoe with stack height of 9mm outsole plus 3mm insole. Tolerable biking on flats if there are low gears to allow reduced pedal force on climbs. Insufficient for single speed and not quite enough to not think about.

Lem’s Primal Zen are what I do ride. Stack height is 11mm outsole plus 3 mm insole and the outsole design is a bit stiffer. This is just enough that I never think about them.

I guess my other observation is that people who don’t build strength in their feet and ankles wearing minimal shoes may not have similar comfort level in these situations and may want a little more stack height.

Altras might be a good option if you want “minimal friendly” but more outsole stiffness. They have a wide, foot shaped last and typically a stack height of at least 20 mm.

Otto

The Chemist

They still sell them. I'm going to buy a pair when I'm in Canada this summer, because I love the idea of being able to ride clipped in in sandals for more relaxed rides.

Kapusta

If you are riding competitively, they can make a difference. It is a small difference, but when racing against a clock or equally strong competitor, that can matter.

I don’t road ride competitively, and don’t really notice a difference with clips vs good flat pedals and shoes (“good” being the key word here) other than when I doing a fast burst of a sprint. Then I notice clipped in is faster.

I rode 100% clipless on road bikes for 15 years, then 7 years ago I started throwing flats in the mix, now I am 95% flats on my paved and gravel rides.

Carbonfiberboy 

I might have missed it, but amazingly and astonishingly, I don't think the actual advantage of being clipped in has been discussed. It's called "pedaling effectiveness." That phrase refers to the percentage of force being applied to the pedal which is tangent to the pedaling circle.

Force on the pedal which is not tangent is wasted energy. With flats, perfect tangential force is only being applied to the pedal at 90° on the downstroke. Clipped in, one can apply force exactly tangent to the circle throughout the portion of the circle where force is being applied, i.e. not usually in the middle of the upstroke, but near the top and bottom. Works just fine with either tight straps on toe clips coupled with rat trap pedals or clipless. Clipless is way safer and more comfortable. Being clipped in also uses a larger number of lower body muscles than just flats, making more use of the hamstrings, glutes, and hip flexors instead of just the quadriceps. Spreading out the work load more increases endurance.

An easy way to tell if you're doing it approximately right is can you pedal in the 120-150 rpm range without bouncing on the saddle. Bouncing is just Newton's 3rd law.

That said, speed is proportional to oxygen use. Obviously just going clipless won't increase your oxygen use, but learning to pedal effectively might get a bit more speed using the same amount of oxygen. Oxygen use on the flat is proportional to the cube of the speed, so even small increments in speed are hard to get. OTOH, that's not true of climbing at the pace most of us duffers use, so one should see some noticeable improvement there once one adapts to pedaling circles..