Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…
#551
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So, to tie this back to the original topic, just how many teams have wheel and/or tire sponsors? Because everyone else could run whatever they prefer.
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I’m not a golfer (only played very casually for a couple of years as a teenager) but it seems like personal equipment choice in golf is far more critical than it is in road biking. I think it is safe to say that any of the pro cyclists could perform just as well on any other team’s bike. Whether they are riding a Cervelo, Specialized, Giant or whatever doesn’t really matter. The hookless debate is simply about safety. Is there a real safety issue or not? That is the only question being asked here.
#553
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Exactly. Unfortunately, the pro riders don't have much say in what they get to use. They are speaking up, at least the prez of their association is about a possible safety issue that could endanger their lives, and some ordinary Joes like you and I are moaning about them not keeping their mouths shut. I don't get it.
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Regarding the adoption of technology by professionals, specifically in the case of Ineos, a team with a budget of approximately $55 million. They have taken a marginal gains approach, going as far as providing individual washing machines and dryers for each team member to reduce the chances of saddle sores. However, they refuse to adopt obvious performance gains available to others. This seems tiresome justification used whenever someone doesn't believe in a particular technology. On the other hand, amateurs can use whatever technology they please. Can you explain this discrepancy?"
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I think pretty much all of the pro teams have wheel and tyre sponsors. Most are using either Vittoria or Conti tyres, which are right at the top of the rolling resistance leaderboard. Wheels are more varied and I think only one World Tour team is on Zipp wheels this year. There are several on Shimano wheels and a few on wheel brands associated with the frame sponsor eg Roval and Reserve.
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I think pretty much all of the pro teams have wheel and tyre sponsors. Most are using either Vittoria or Conti tyres, which are right at the top of the rolling resistance leaderboard. Wheels are more varied and I think only one World Tour team is on Zipp wheels this year. There are several on Shimano wheels and a few on wheel brands associated with the frame sponsor eg Roval and Reserve.
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https://www.bikeradar.com/features/p...orldtour-bikes
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I can't seem to get the long answer condensed down enough. It would come down to the team thinking the possible marginal gain not being enough to offset losing the sponsor. Sponsors are hard to come by these days.
Last edited by seypat; 03-28-24 at 07:58 PM.
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So I thought about it. The short answer is because the sponsor's stroke some BA checks which enable the team to operate.
I can't seem to get the long answer condensed down enough. It would come down to the team not thinking the possible marginal gain not being enough to offset losing the sponsor. Sponsors are hard to come by these days.
I can't seem to get the long answer condensed down enough. It would come down to the team not thinking the possible marginal gain not being enough to offset losing the sponsor. Sponsors are hard to come by these days.
We also have not addressed why many top-level amateurs and competitive riders are switching to tubeless and hookless.
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#565
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Summary: 25mm internal width hookless is no longer allowed to run 28mm tires, in accordance with existing ISO standards which Zipp had previously ignored.
Zipp has three tiers of wheels and only the budget tier is not 25mm internal width. Expect Zipp and other brands to redesign with narrower rims for the next model year.
Zipp is in a terrible situation. They're going to have to update their consumer tire width recommendation to align with the UCI ruling. If they do not, they're going to be sued by every person who crashes starting from today, accusing Zipp of knowingly ignoring ISO safety standards. Expect a class action lawsuit incoming from current wheel owners demanding free new wheels, accusing Zipp of selling them a product that knowingly ignored ISO safety standards.
Zipp has three tiers of wheels and only the budget tier is not 25mm internal width. Expect Zipp and other brands to redesign with narrower rims for the next model year.
Zipp is in a terrible situation. They're going to have to update their consumer tire width recommendation to align with the UCI ruling. If they do not, they're going to be sued by every person who crashes starting from today, accusing Zipp of knowingly ignoring ISO safety standards. Expect a class action lawsuit incoming from current wheel owners demanding free new wheels, accusing Zipp of selling them a product that knowingly ignored ISO safety standards.
Last edited by Yan; 03-29-24 at 06:07 PM.
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Specialized says that its Roval Terra CL, which is hooked and has an internal width of 25 mm, can take 28 mm tires. Even that sounds a bit iffy to me.
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Summary: 25mm internal width hookless is no longer allowed to run 28mm tires, in accordance with existing ISO standards which Zipp had previously ignored.
Zipp has three tiers of wheels and only the budget tier is not 25mm internal width. Expect Zipp and other brands to redesign with narrower rims for the next model year.
Zipp is in a terrible situation. They're going to have to update their consumer tire width recommendation to align with the UCI ruling. If they do not, they're going to be sued by every person who crashes starting from today, accusing Zipp of knowingly ignoring ISO safety standards. Expect a class action lawsuit incoming from current wheel owners demanding free new wheels, accusing Zipp of selling them a product that knowingly ignored ISO safety standards.
Zipp has three tiers of wheels and only the budget tier is not 25mm internal width. Expect Zipp and other brands to redesign with narrower rims for the next model year.
Zipp is in a terrible situation. They're going to have to update their consumer tire width recommendation to align with the UCI ruling. If they do not, they're going to be sued by every person who crashes starting from today, accusing Zipp of knowingly ignoring ISO safety standards. Expect a class action lawsuit incoming from current wheel owners demanding free new wheels, accusing Zipp of selling them a product that knowingly ignored ISO safety standards.
Also agree this probably spells the end for 25mm hookless road rims. At least while 28 mm race tyre width is still considered the optimum.
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Iffy in what way? Hooked is as safe as it gets for wired-on/clincher tires. Even back in the 1980's when a few companies were selling MTB rims with 19-mm internal width, the main concern was that tires over 2 inches in width, run at low pressure on single-track trails, might flop over sideways on high-speed turns, but they'd stay on the rim.
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Unless someone accurately tests and proves that there's something, magical about a 28mm tire over a 30mm, the simple answer is to change to 30. My latest Pirelli P-Zero ROAD TLR tires in 30mm aren't 2mm wider than the 28mm RACE version that I use on the front. I agree that all wheel brands should align their recommendations with ISO or ETRTO to avoid lawsuits, but if there are really tires being blown off at recommended pressures and size combinations, then there's likely to be lawsuits, particularly if there's enough money in it to be worthwhile for the ambulance chasing attorneys.
I'm still running 28mm front on 25mm hookless at 52-55 psi and I've tested at 85, so I'm not worried.
I'm still running 28mm front on 25mm hookless at 52-55 psi and I've tested at 85, so I'm not worried.
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Unless someone accurately tests and proves that there's something, magical about a 28mm tire over a 30mm, the simple answer is to change to 30. My latest Pirelli P-Zero ROAD TLR tires in 30mm aren't 2mm wider than the 28mm RACE version that I use on the front. I agree that all wheel brands should align their recommendations with ISO or ETRTO to avoid lawsuits, but if there are really tires being blown off at recommended pressures and size combinations, then there's likely to be lawsuits, particularly if there's enough money in it to be worthwhile for the ambulance chasing attorneys.
I'm still running 28mm front on 25mm hookless at 52-55 psi and I've tested at 85, so I'm not worried.
I'm still running 28mm front on 25mm hookless at 52-55 psi and I've tested at 85, so I'm not worried.
So it will be interesting to see how Zipp and the tyre manufacturers involved in signing off the compatibility of their tyres respond.
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Or they might find themselves in a situation where 28 mm tires will fit their frames, but 30 won't.
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#572
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#573
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So much confusion going on.
Current mavic tyre/pressure chart recommends a minimum 30mm tubeless tyre on a 25mm TSS rim, at no more than 60.5 psi (!), meaning the usual 72 psi max for hookless is out the window too.
https://technicalmanual.mavic.com/te...hemes/2_72.pdf
Seems to me the industry is slightly panicking and scrambling to prevent injuries and lawsuits.
Current mavic tyre/pressure chart recommends a minimum 30mm tubeless tyre on a 25mm TSS rim, at no more than 60.5 psi (!), meaning the usual 72 psi max for hookless is out the window too.
https://technicalmanual.mavic.com/te...hemes/2_72.pdf
Seems to me the industry is slightly panicking and scrambling to prevent injuries and lawsuits.
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A lot of previously unrecorded incidents might start coming to the surface. I hope it doesn't turn out like the Ford Explorer/Firestone debacle.
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So much confusion going on.
Current mavic tyre/pressure chart recommends a minimum 30mm tubeless tyre on a 25mm TSS rim, at no more than 60.5 psi (!), meaning the usual 72 psi max for hookless is out the window too.
https://technicalmanual.mavic.com/te...hemes/2_72.pdf
Seems to me the industry is slightly panicking and scrambling to prevent injuries and lawsuits.
Current mavic tyre/pressure chart recommends a minimum 30mm tubeless tyre on a 25mm TSS rim, at no more than 60.5 psi (!), meaning the usual 72 psi max for hookless is out the window too.
https://technicalmanual.mavic.com/te...hemes/2_72.pdf
Seems to me the industry is slightly panicking and scrambling to prevent injuries and lawsuits.
So is the 72/73 psi number bandied about all of the time -- something from ISO or from ETRTO, or somewhere else?