Need help with cones
07-02-23, 06:24 PM
#1
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Need help with cones
Not sure where to get them. These came out of an AlexRim, RHD, 26" front wheel off my Rockhopper.
I know it needs cones. I would like to get new bearings and rubber seals, also. The balls measure .187" dia. There are ten on each side.
The threads on the axel have some rough spots, so I would replace that, too.
In a situation like this, would you polish the races? I was thinking of polishing them with a fiber wheel on a Dremel tool and some abrasive, or maybe just by hand with some fine grit cloth or sandpaper.
I've done some searches but haven't come up with these parts.
Any help would be appreciated.
I know it needs cones. I would like to get new bearings and rubber seals, also. The balls measure .187" dia. There are ten on each side.
The threads on the axel have some rough spots, so I would replace that, too.
In a situation like this, would you polish the races? I was thinking of polishing them with a fiber wheel on a Dremel tool and some abrasive, or maybe just by hand with some fine grit cloth or sandpaper.
I've done some searches but haven't come up with these parts.
Any help would be appreciated.
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Last edited by sknhgy; 07-02-23 at 06:27 PM.
07-02-23, 06:35 PM
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it is a Shimano hub of some type. Freewheel configuration not cassette looks like I suspect any axle / cone assembly from a period compatible hub would work
don't polish the races
if it were me I'd find a new hub and cannibalize it for parts. Question is which model ? Deore XT ?
there is a complete parts box of classic shimano hub internals - cones and spacers - new on ebay now for sixty buck !
item 155595578893
grab that before I do
/markp
don't polish the races
if it were me I'd find a new hub and cannibalize it for parts. Question is which model ? Deore XT ?
there is a complete parts box of classic shimano hub internals - cones and spacers - new on ebay now for sixty buck !
item 155595578893
grab that before I do
/markp
Last edited by mpetry912; 07-02-23 at 06:41 PM.
07-02-23, 06:36 PM
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Nothing you can do to improve the cones. These surfaces are loosely akin to ice crusted snow, namely a hard surface covering a softer core. Polishing will only remove more o f the critical hard skin.
There are sources for replacement cones, if not an exact match, at least close enough to serve well. However the seals are much harder to find, if at all.
Looking at them, they're not terrible, and in your shoes, I'd use new balls, good quality grease, and careful adjustment to minimum preload. Then ride.
BTW while this wear will feel rough when spinning the axle in your fingers, the actual difference when riding is about as close to zero as one can imagine.
There are sources for replacement cones, if not an exact match, at least close enough to serve well. However the seals are much harder to find, if at all.
Looking at them, they're not terrible, and in your shoes, I'd use new balls, good quality grease, and careful adjustment to minimum preload. Then ride.
BTW while this wear will feel rough when spinning the axle in your fingers, the actual difference when riding is about as close to zero as one can imagine.
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Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
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07-02-23, 06:45 PM
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and maybe swap the drive side and off side cones just to equalize the wear
Otherwise yes follow FB's advice above
/markp
Otherwise yes follow FB's advice above
/markp
07-02-23, 07:34 PM
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07-02-23, 08:07 PM
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I am curious, though. How did you 1) identify it as a Shimano hub (though even a guess would likely have been correct), and 2) identify it as a freewheel hub?
07-02-23, 10:29 PM
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You buy the entire QR axle for $10-$20 (depending on the LBS), which is generously supplied with washers too.
If your cycling performance is measurably impacted such that you feel you need to polish old cones to restore results, you may want to look for a better condition or new wheelset to get all this over it.
I don't use my time to polish old cones.
I use my time for cycling.
07-03-23, 07:09 AM
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Do you have a bike co-op in your area. If so, and it's like the one that I volunteer at, they will have plenty of spare axles, cones, locknuts, etc.
07-03-23, 08:56 AM
#10
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OP: you haven't mentioned the state of the hub cups. I presume you've inspected them and that they show no evidence of pitting/other damage along the bearing wear track. If not, you really should do that. If the cups are pitted, that changes your viable options considerably.
Assuming the cups are OK, as I see it you have three options:
a. Find exact replacement cones, repack, readjust, and ride.
b. Find a suitable third-party cone (or axle set), use those cones (or axle set), repack, readjust, and ride.
c. Reuse the existing cones, repack, readjust, and continue to ride.
In my book, option a. would be best. If it's a Shimano/other major brand hub and you can determine which one it is, you may be able to find the exact replacement cones - or not, depending on just how old the hub is. (Shimano and other manufacturers eventually quit making repair parts for their older products.)
Option b. is also viable, provided you pay attention to the length of the cones and are willing to play with spacers. FWIW: I find the Wheelmaster axle sets to be a good value (fairly inexpensive, Taiwanese-made, decent quality, and the axles are CroMo steel). Their cones also appear to be a good fit for many older Shimano road hubs. You might also be able to find a suitable replacement cone set at a LBS; take the old ones with you (both if they're not identical, or at least one if they appear identical).
IMO option c . is viable, but I personally would argue that should be a short-term option only while you look for replacement cones. The left cone in your photo above shows some pitting. Fragments will continue to spall from those pits over time, enlarging them and contaminating the grease. Eventually those hardened steel fragments in the grease will kill the bearing balls, cause more damage to the cones, and start pitting the cups. Once the cups are dead, the hub is toast.
If the existing axle is not bent, unless the threads are in really bad shape I don't think you have to worry overmuch about replacing it. (They don't look all that bad in the photo.) A good cleaning with some solvent and a wire brush followed by using the locknuts to chase the threads should work wonders. I'd do that in any case, even if I got a new axle kit, and keep that one as a spare. You never know if you'll need one in the future (though for a front axle the likelihood is probably low).
Also FWIW: @FBinNY 's advice above re: grinding/polishing cones is sound. Cones in a cup/cone bearing are typically surface-hardened (AKA "case hardened"). The hardened layer is usually rather thin, and regrinding and/or polishing a used cone removes all or part of the remaining hardened layer of steel. They'll wear more quickly. I'd recommend it as a last resort only for a vintage item for which a replacement hub or cone is simply not available.
Hope this helps. Best of luck.
Assuming the cups are OK, as I see it you have three options:
a. Find exact replacement cones, repack, readjust, and ride.
b. Find a suitable third-party cone (or axle set), use those cones (or axle set), repack, readjust, and ride.
c. Reuse the existing cones, repack, readjust, and continue to ride.
In my book, option a. would be best. If it's a Shimano/other major brand hub and you can determine which one it is, you may be able to find the exact replacement cones - or not, depending on just how old the hub is. (Shimano and other manufacturers eventually quit making repair parts for their older products.)
Option b. is also viable, provided you pay attention to the length of the cones and are willing to play with spacers. FWIW: I find the Wheelmaster axle sets to be a good value (fairly inexpensive, Taiwanese-made, decent quality, and the axles are CroMo steel). Their cones also appear to be a good fit for many older Shimano road hubs. You might also be able to find a suitable replacement cone set at a LBS; take the old ones with you (both if they're not identical, or at least one if they appear identical).
IMO option c . is viable, but I personally would argue that should be a short-term option only while you look for replacement cones. The left cone in your photo above shows some pitting. Fragments will continue to spall from those pits over time, enlarging them and contaminating the grease. Eventually those hardened steel fragments in the grease will kill the bearing balls, cause more damage to the cones, and start pitting the cups. Once the cups are dead, the hub is toast.
If the existing axle is not bent, unless the threads are in really bad shape I don't think you have to worry overmuch about replacing it. (They don't look all that bad in the photo.) A good cleaning with some solvent and a wire brush followed by using the locknuts to chase the threads should work wonders. I'd do that in any case, even if I got a new axle kit, and keep that one as a spare. You never know if you'll need one in the future (though for a front axle the likelihood is probably low).
Also FWIW: @FBinNY 's advice above re: grinding/polishing cones is sound. Cones in a cup/cone bearing are typically surface-hardened (AKA "case hardened"). The hardened layer is usually rather thin, and regrinding and/or polishing a used cone removes all or part of the remaining hardened layer of steel. They'll wear more quickly. I'd recommend it as a last resort only for a vintage item for which a replacement hub or cone is simply not available.
Hope this helps. Best of luck.
Last edited by Hondo6; 07-03-23 at 09:03 AM. Reason: Corrrect typos.
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07-03-23, 09:43 AM
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Not sure where to get them. These came out of an AlexRim, RHD, 26" front wheel off my Rockhopper.
I know it needs cones. I would like to get new bearings and rubber seals, also. The balls measure .187" dia. There are ten on each side.
The threads on the axel have some rough spots, so I would replace that, too.
In a situation like this, would you polish the races? I was thinking of polishing them with a fiber wheel on a Dremel tool and some abrasive, or maybe just by hand with some fine grit cloth or sandpaper.
I know it needs cones. I would like to get new bearings and rubber seals, also. The balls measure .187" dia. There are ten on each side.
The threads on the axel have some rough spots, so I would replace that, too.
In a situation like this, would you polish the races? I was thinking of polishing them with a fiber wheel on a Dremel tool and some abrasive, or maybe just by hand with some fine grit cloth or sandpaper.
07-03-23, 10:22 AM
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That's because you can't normally buy individual cone nuts.
You buy the entire QR axle for $10-$20 (depending on the LBS), which is generously supplied with washers too.
If your cycling performance is measurably impacted such that you feel you need to polish old cones to restore results, you may want to look for a better condition or new wheelset to get all this over it.
I don't use my time to polish old cones.
I use my time for cycling.
You buy the entire QR axle for $10-$20 (depending on the LBS), which is generously supplied with washers too.
If your cycling performance is measurably impacted such that you feel you need to polish old cones to restore results, you may want to look for a better condition or new wheelset to get all this over it.
I don't use my time to polish old cones.
I use my time for cycling.
So does Wheels Mfg. and a number of other sources.
the cheapo axle sets you mentioned are tragically cheap, poorly machined, have loose threads,,and barely hardened cones. When tightened in place, the cones go out of alignment to the axle. ... not worth buying, IMO.
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07-03-23, 10:34 AM
#14
Must be symmetrical
first of all, that is a really cool plate that you are using in your workshop. I use cheap Ikea plastic stuff and old take-out containers to hold my greasy parts, not engraved works of art.
My advice--it is nearly impossible to achieve an after the fact match of cone, bearings, and cups. even from ostensible manufacturer original parts. so . . .
a) run the hub a tiny bit loose with a generous amount of grease, replace grease regularly. You may not notice the difference, or, the play might cause annoying brake engagement or clicks
b) take the opportunity to build a wheel. find a good quality matching, used hub and you can reuse the spokes. Or buy a different, new hub and spokes. if you haven't built a wheel before, all the better. take the opportunity to learn.
c) buy a prebuilt complete wheel. If your priority is riding and not wrenching, there is nothing wrong with this. Those of use who like wrenching tend to spend too little time riding as a result.
My advice--it is nearly impossible to achieve an after the fact match of cone, bearings, and cups. even from ostensible manufacturer original parts. so . . .
a) run the hub a tiny bit loose with a generous amount of grease, replace grease regularly. You may not notice the difference, or, the play might cause annoying brake engagement or clicks
b) take the opportunity to build a wheel. find a good quality matching, used hub and you can reuse the spokes. Or buy a different, new hub and spokes. if you haven't built a wheel before, all the better. take the opportunity to learn.
c) buy a prebuilt complete wheel. If your priority is riding and not wrenching, there is nothing wrong with this. Those of use who like wrenching tend to spend too little time riding as a result.
07-03-23, 11:18 AM
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I circled in red the worst pitting that I can see. And it's not that bad. If that's the worst of it and if it's only in that one spot, I wouldn't worry about it. In the meantime, you can look for the same model used hub to grab its cones.
When measuring something so small with a digital caliper, use units in millimeters. 3/16" balls measure 4.76mm.
^ This. Replace the old balls with 3/16" grade 25 first.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/292250961016
The balls measure .187" dia.
^ This. Replace the old balls with 3/16" grade 25 first.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/292250961016
Last edited by SurferRosa; 07-03-23 at 11:21 AM.
07-03-23, 01:07 PM
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Show me a place to buy Shimano 7400 Rear cones. I have been looking for years and ended up getting a parts hub that had acceptable cones.
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07-03-23, 04:40 PM
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/36398065236...6ebd0a3ad31310
Vintage DA Hub assemblies are cheaper, but ya place yer bets, then take yer chances, eh? loose bearing settings and filled with thick grease is a sign of internal trouble, IMO.
i didn't know we were talking obsolete fancy race level parts..the OP's hub is not a DA-7400. DA-7400 was released in 1984... my ALAN is dressed in wallflower fresh DA7400... I bought the group from a student heading home... "it was dad's old bike, no one called, except you..."... a schwinn super sport... 56cm, fushia color, carefully painted with a brush... price drop before his flight.... $80... i couldn't get the cash out of my pocket fast enough... specialized Turbo seat and tires...Rigida rims, DT db spokes, and really bad cabling... the brake loops were a foot high and bent to pieces.....
there are aftermarket cone variety kits, but few people can justify buying those.
The DA hubs and the DT spokes went into Mavic MA40 rims... the Rigidas are in my stash.
Last edited by maddog34; 07-03-23 at 04:55 PM.
07-03-23, 04:47 PM
#18
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I can measure what I've got, but I can't find measurements on the parts listed on Amazon, so I'm having trouble matching things up.
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Last edited by sknhgy; 07-03-23 at 04:52 PM.
07-03-23, 05:53 PM
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You're obviously not doing this to save money and appear commited to complete this at all costs, a LBS can sell you what you need for the DIY.
07-04-23, 06:17 AM
#20
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I admit there are a handful of differently widths for QR axles, and you certainly don't want them wider than the drops, but this is one of those times where a LBS can really help, not the amazons.
You're obviously not doing this to save money and appear commited to complete this at all costs, a LBS can sell you what you need for the DIY.
You're obviously not doing this to save money and appear commited to complete this at all costs, a LBS can sell you what you need for the DIY.
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07-04-23, 06:24 AM
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07-04-23, 07:48 AM
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I've had pretty good luck chucking a used cone in a drill press and cleaning them up with sandpaper wrapped around a wooden dowel. maybe there is a surface hardness that is lost, just know removing the brinelling made the wheels turn smoothly again.
Through the years I've managed to collect a jar of usable axle parts. That wheels manufacturing link dedhed posted is a good one. Doing a search on amazon returns cheap axle sets as well. I bought a kit containing a couple hundred balls of various sizes many years ago. Extremely handy to have since I seem to drop the stupid things onesy twosey on a regular basis.
But like someone said time is often better spent riding then trying to save old parts. Just get an axle kit of Amazon and bolt it up, or a new hub.
Through the years I've managed to collect a jar of usable axle parts. That wheels manufacturing link dedhed posted is a good one. Doing a search on amazon returns cheap axle sets as well. I bought a kit containing a couple hundred balls of various sizes many years ago. Extremely handy to have since I seem to drop the stupid things onesy twosey on a regular basis.
But like someone said time is often better spent riding then trying to save old parts. Just get an axle kit of Amazon and bolt it up, or a new hub.
07-05-23, 07:34 AM
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07-05-23, 09:57 AM
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Why? When decimal measurements are used there is no advantage to using metric over imperial. Even the imperial fraction of 3/16" is an exact number.
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07-05-23, 10:04 AM
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Really, we hardly use inches in anything we measure, whether it be stem reach, crank arm length, brake reach, fork offset, chainline, OLD, seatpost diameter, headset stack, spoke length, tire width or frame size. Yes, there are a few exceptions. A few.