staehpj1

My interest is just a little piqued by the teaser about this new route in the latest Adventure Cyclist magazine. It looks like it might hit a few of the right notes for me. Big Bend is on my bucket list. The flint Hills were awesome when I rode there in the spring some years ago. I have not ridden that portion of Oklahoma (the panhandle sucked on the route I crossed it). I have read that KS and NE can be interesting given the right route and I have enjoyed KS well enough on a few other trips. I have never seen the lowess hills. I have never set foot or rolled a wheel onto either of the Dakotas. So there are some potential attractions to the route for me

Anyone know more about the route than the article reveals?

It might be fun to do another tour on my old rigid mountail bike either with or without the drop bar setup it is outfitted with at the moment, My hardtail mountain bike that is my daily ride would be fun on a route like that as well. Also it could also be a reasonable excuse to buy a gravel bike.

I would think timing would mean starting in the south at a time that put you in the Flint Hills when they are that amazing green. I'd want to try to get to the Dakotas before it was too hot though. Hot sure if both of those are possible. Maybe hitting the Flint Hills in early Spring and making decent time would do it. I'd have to sit down with a route map and weatherspark to plan. Splitting it and doing half one year and half another doesn't really appeal to me, but could solve any weather timing issue.

Tourist in MSN

I do not get the magazine.I never heard of it. I did a google search, found this, but you probably have already found this too.
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/g...s-gravel-route

The map in that link looks like the line is too far east to go through South Dakota on the George S Mickelson trail. The Mickelson trail is rail trail through the Black Hills. I was there in a late August, the higher elevations were quite pleasant but the lower elevation at the southern end at Edgemont was in the 90s.

And it looks like it goes too far east to use the Maah Daah Hey trail in North Dakota, that connects Theodore Roosevelt National Park segments. The Maah Daah Hey trail is single track. I was there in an early Sep, weather was quite nice, but expect no water between the campgrounds, I was car camping while day riding on the trail and a lot of bikepackers came into the campgrounds badly dehydrated.

The line on that map is quite far east of Big Bend National Park. When I was there in an early April, weather ranged from quite hot to cold. One morning my water bottles were partly frozen, I had left them on my bike.

But maybe that line is just intended to be generalized and it might include some of these locales?

I suspect 2023 might be too early to plan to ride it.

staehpj1

I assume that is the case at least to some degree. It looks kind of "schematic" more than like an actual route.

Yeah, I was thinking more likely next year. assuming they really have the route completed this year at all. I don't think there is any chance details will be released for a Spring start this year and I think Spring looks likely to be the best time for this route.

staehpj1

Well, I am not sure when I'd want to be there, but maybe earlier than early April. Not sure when the Flint Hills green up, but I'd base it on that. I know they were nice when I was there in mid May, but suspect earlier would be good too. I don't think I'd mnd being near Big Bend real early. I found the Southern Tier weather okay when I rode it W-E mid Feb to mid March. Overninight freezes don't worry me much when it usually gets warm-ish (50F at least) during the day.

All that is based on my knowledge from my ride on the ST and the one through the Flint Hills. I may be ignoring factors in other areas that I don't know enough to worry about at this point.

Tourist in MSN

I know you do not like to carry much food. In the Dakotas, distances between grocery stores could be a factor. You might need to have some food mailed to you, but even post offices could be far between. But I would expect ACA to get all of that documented on a series of maps.

From what we know it is impossible to say if the route will go past an Amtrak station or not. Amtrak goes through Williston ND and Alpine TX. If you skipped some of the distance at each end, you might be able to use Amtrak to get to near the start and near the finish.

zweitesmal2

I live in San Antonio, in South Texas, and I've done variations of this North/South line multiple times. Northbound is an unbelievable joy because of the Southern winds and I aim that direction almost every summer to begin my journey (it takes me 4 days to get out of Texas no matter which direction I take by the way). My tours are self made random routes that all begin and end at home and this proposed route you mention looks like a beauty! In 2016 I did that Southbound plummet from North Dakota back to Texas and it was really tough because of those headwinds. In '19 I was Northbound and easily pulled some of the highest daily mileages of my life. I can't get enough of these Great Plains for some reason. I'm piecing together another run up North right now, for June through August. Kansas, Nebraska- all of that- is really special. I think it has to do with the sense of accomplishment one gets crossing those big expanses. I've often suspected that the folks discussing East or West headwinds on their Transams were actually encountering variations of that mighty South wind. I'd be very excited to incorporate this gravel route as my outbound leg when it comes to fruition. On a side note I ride to Big Bend each November for my birthday and I promise you will very much enjoy that region. I'll be watching this project develop for sure.

staehpj1

Yes I have observed the winds on the plains when/where I have been to be mostly out of the SE and usually strong,

Yes, I'd expect to do differently on this trip. I figure it would have to be a bit more like backpacking of canoe camping wrt to carrying food. Water might be the bigger concern since it is heavy.

It hadn't occurred to me that Amtrak woukd be useful for access to this route, but it does look like it just might be helpful to get between te end points. I could Imagine driving to TX and using Amtrak as part of the plan to get back to the car.

Also I wonder if 4wd pickup, jeep, or 2wd car support will be possible on this route. I am not usually into that, but my wife has made comments about driving support on a long tour. If we were to do that we'd do some other sight seeing on the way back home.

staehpj1

The route details are really vague at this point and I doubt that the map is a good indication of where the route actually goes. I'll just look forward to hearing more from Adventure Cycling unless someone is privy to more details.

jamawani 

I have toured the Great Plains extensively - especially Nebraska.
And I am a historian of rural communities - primarily in the West.
I agree - there is spectacular beauty and wonderful small towns.
But.

Weather is always a challenge - just ask Dorothy or the Okies heading west.
In spring the weather can run from pleasant in Texas to blizzards in the Dakotas.
Sames goes for the fall. And in summer it is scorching almost up to the Canadian border.
April, May, and June may be the best time, but it is also prime tornado season.

I'm not sure what the organizers consider to be "gravel".
I would warn any person touring to be cautious about unpaved roads in the Great Plains.
What might appear to be an average gravel road can turn into 4-inch deep sand pretty quickly.
Add a downpour to the mix when you are 20 miles from pavement and you have glue.

The finest scenery in the Plains is found in the least populated areas.
Yet, small towns have faced a brutal, steady outmigration since WWII.
Many little towns only had one or two businesses hanging on prior to covid.
And it seems that covid struck a serious hammer blow to them.
If there is a bar/cafe/store still open, vegan fare is unlikely to be on the menu.

Which brings us to a major cultural divide.
Many rural Plains counties vote 90% for the Republican Party in presidential elections.
Cyclists are often from far more liberal areas - east coast, west coast, even Omaha or Kansas City.
People in the High Plains overwhelmingly support pipelines and raising beef.
And they drive Ford F-350s towing horse trailers.

I would hope that anyone who is in a position to ride a bicycle for a month -
both financially and time-wise - would be aware of the cultural chasm.
Kathleen Norris' "Dakota, A Spiritual Geography" is a stunning book,
but she wrote it as a transplanted New Yorker.
City folk loved it - Dakotans found it condescending.

<<<>>>

Attached is a 1930s photo of Rexford Tugwell in white pants and shoes telling a Dust Bowl farmer how to farm.

Tourist in MSN

If part of it is on the Mickelson trail and the Maah Daah Hey trail, those are bike only. But there is car camping near the trail or on the trail. First two photos are Maah Daah Hey trail.

First photo below, the campsite we stayed at for one night is in the distance in the photo on the right, but it is so empty at the time of photo you might not be able to make it out. We were car camping and doing day trips on the trail. I put a suspension fork on my heavy touring bike, I do not have a mountain bike.

Second photo, this is a forewarning, this photo was on the Maah Daah Hey trail, yes they even have thorn bushes up where it gets down to minus 40 degrees in winter.





I do not know what you use for basemaps in a GPS, but these topo maps might be nice to have. The contour lines are far between, and the lines are metric so you see odd contour intervals. But overall I find them useful to have sometimes when off major routes.
USA OSM Topo Routable | GMapTool

But the Mickelson trail is an old rail trail, so not as rough, an off the shelf gravel bike would work well. I did that in 2009 when my high end expensive digital camera was 3 megapixel, so I do not have enough photos to really show off much. My riding partner borrowed a camera with more pixels, this is from his camera. From the presence of a lot of trees, this clearly is in the Black Hills.



I could get interested in a trip like this too.

Tourist in MSN

Thanks for posting, this is good information. I had not realized that there was a prevailing south to north wind. Without thinking about that, I would have simply thought that going north would be nice so the sun is not in your eyes.

jamawani 

Actually, in the Great Plains there are about equal northerly and southerly winds.
Summer has more southerly, winter more northerly. Spring and fall about equal.
And the wind shift is dramatic when a front goes through.
You can have 25-30 mph southerlies and the next morning 25-30 mph northerlies.
Summer can be brutally hot in the Great Plains - just check out some Crazyguy journals.
Spring and fall have highly changeable weather patterns.

https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/si...etwork=NE_ASOS

John N

Your wind rose shows the entire year. I doubt too many people want to ride through Aninsworth in the winter so the rose is a bit misleading. If you are able to generate a wind rose say for April to October, that would be better.

staehpj1

The typical comments about the winds on the plains are for summer and I'd bet the te rose would show strong southerly bias. That said for this route I might want a pretty early start and a finish that would depend on dsily mileage. We don't know enough about the route to predict either very well, but if I had to guess I'd guess that I just might start between mid March and early April and finish in 8-12 weeks. To be really useful I'd do wind roses for various points along the route at times I might be there. A more general one for the whole range of dates might give a general idea.

I like to point to a sort of crude drawing I ran across for general summer winds. It is a drawing map representing July winds in the US. It doesn't give the level of detail you can get from wind roses and is only for one time of year, but it does show an overall picture. Sites like Windy.com give a similar, but detailed live picture. I thought they had the ability to look at dates in the past, but I don't see that at this time. Perhaps my memory is faulty of maybe that is now only part of a paid account.

Anyway, this little drawing seems to match my experiences of what I experienced in the summer. I may be inclined to start this trip t too early in the season for it to be useful and as mentioned elsewhere the winds on the plains can be quite variable. Still in Summer on the plains there were way more days with SE winds than anything else IME.

jamawani 

Here's what I said -

Actually, in the Great Plains there are about equal northerly and southerly winds.
Summer has more southerly, winter more northerly. Spring and fall about equal.
And the wind shift is dramatic when a front goes through.
You can have 25-30 mph southerlies and the next morning 25-30 mph northerlies.
Summer can be brutally hot in the Great Plains - just check out some Crazyguy journals.
Spring and fall have highly changeable weather patterns.

There is nothing misleading about it for people who read.
You can go to the Iowa State University website and get monthly charts.

I've probably done more Great Plains riding and touring than most people here.
And did my doctoral work at K.U. in Lawrence while living in Topeka.
I can assure that the months where southerlies prevail - late June thru late Sept. -
are pretty darn brutal temperature-wise. Without shade on remote roads.

I stand by what my initial framing argues -
In the months with the best termperatures for riding - southerlies and northerlies are roughly equal.
Also, if you have ever ridden on a 100+ day with a tailwind -
you can find yourself in a still-air pocket
and are usually praying for a sidewind or a headwind.

Just sayin'.

Tourist in MSN

I just picked Nebraska as a bit past the half way point if you start at the south end and go north. And I picked eastern Nebraska where the elevation is still lower instead of western Nebraska, and from that I picked Lincoln Nebraska for sample weather in the mid to late part of the trip.
https://weatherspark.com/y/146009/Av...tes-Year-Round

April and May, the wind direction starts to show a predominant south wind, that is stronger later when it gets hotter. Average wind speed peaks in Apr, steadily drops off until Aug. Apr is wet, May and Jun are wetter with heaviest amount of rain in late May. Early Jun is when probability of precip is greatest at about 40 percent. They define a wet day as having a mm (or about 0.04 inch) of rain, if you had sprinkles less than a total of 1mm, it did not rain that day. July and early Aug are the worst for heat and humidity, but someone from Florida would probably feel right at home then.

Based on that wind data, I would not want to be going North to South in late summer, the wind is weaker then compared to spring but you are going against it.

tcs

Hmm. Interesting tour route proposal.

I grew up in the Great Plains. I love it. My experience has been that if one isn't from there, there is a low percentage chance of appreciating it. That's why we get tour reports like "TransAm - the Dreaded Middle Third" and "The Road to Nowhere". This was an area the 49ers and wagon trains crossed, not a destination for them. It's home to ~1% of the American population.




Clifford Graves once said, "There is some fine cycling even in Texas, but you have to look for it with a candle. The West has many beauty spots, but they are hidden in vast stretches of indifferent country." Yeah, he was from Southern California, not the Great Plains.

jamawani 

But - - -

One year I stopped at a little country store in northern South Dakota - Roscoe, I think.
The cashier asked which way I was going and I said I was heading north.
She replied, "That must be really exhausting since you are going uphill all the time."

tcs

Some of this Great Plains Gravel Route is along tours I've sketched for contemplation.

Black Hills to Sand Hills
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/38455430

Sand Hills to Flint Hills
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/38455464

Flint Hills
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/38462328

Not 'gravel' routes per se, but yeah, 'the tour continues even if the pavement doesn't'. Oh, but take RideWithGPS's pavement/no pavement indications with a grain of salt.

mev

As far as wind on the Great Plains goes, I always liked this map: https://windhistory.com/map.html#7.00/36.094/-98.751 It shows not just one wind rose but multiple roses on the map and lets you click on top right and pick the months. For example, here is a selection centered on the 100th Meridian with the months from April to October inclusive picked but you can make your own selections.

In general, I like picking the 100th Meridian as the classic dividing line between a more humid east and more arid west. It also happens to align with where vegetation, water law and other changes happen as well. I have read (https://news.climate.columbia.edu/20...w-moving-east/) that this has more recently been edging eastwards more to the 98th Meridian or so.

This also happens to correlate with higher average wind speeds throughout the year (https://windexchange.energy.gov/maps-data/325)

Not a gravel route, but in 2018 I cycled US 83 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_83) a major highway that isn't too far from the 100th Meridian starting in July. When I looked at the climate maps (e.g. below) including wind roses, I realized that dew point was at least as important to me as temperature. so I wanted to stay a little further west. Places like Lawrence Kansas are pretty far east (close to the 95th) and hence on average also more muggy/humid than the Great Plains region @tcs highlights in post #17. So I would either be tempted to avoid the hottest summer months or pick a slightly more westerly route than the gravel route shown in the great plains map. In most of those states a Delorme Atlas gives a good overview of potential county roads. My experience with gravel county roads at least in Colorado (*) was many are can be in good condition but get some rain and it becomes a lot more variable in mud conditions.

On my July US 83 trip, it was hot the first days in Texas and I ended up going early and finishing by noon. After that I got slightly cooler weather patterns and it was fine. I also had some delightful tailwinds and more tailwinds than headwinds.


(*) A portion of my gravel road/plains experience came when I was in Fort Collins Colorado and started an enterprise to cycle all the gravel roads in Weld County. Weld County (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weld_County,_Colorado) has about 2000 miles of gravel roads and I only got about 30% of them before moving. However for that county at least, I learned there were some slightly better "arterials" with good surfacing even in bad conditions - and then some that really turned slick/muddy with not much rain. Fortunately, it didn't rain very much in that area. // I also saw some of this crossing into western Kansas, particularly when I stumbled onto the fact that my maps indicated mixed pavement/gravel for old US-40 but several counties had since ripped up the old pavement. // My third instance was in letting my GPS guide my rental car on gravel roads near Plains, TX and unfortunately getting stuck in some deep mud.

staehpj1

I hope they get some more route info out fairly early in the year if not fully complete the route and have maps up for sale. I'd like to get a better handle on what to expect of the route so I know whether I want to do it in 2024 and if so what I need to be prepared for.

When backpacking these days I like to limit myself to carrying no more than 4-5 days of food at most, but really water is the tough part. It doesn't have to be too far between resupply before water gets heavy. I'd expect that similar limitations will apply to a gravel tour for me. I might be more willing to haul a heavier load on the bike than when backpacking especially if it is for limited stretches, but I am really and skeptical about resorting to carrying heavy loads for the majority of the ride. If a support vehicle could either be right on the route or close by and able to set caches that might solve the water issue in some places. I am generally not a fan of using support vehicles though.

All that said I have gotten spoiled with UL packing techniques and frequent resupply so heavy loads will be hard to adapt to. Still I am not one who is unwilling to try different types of trips. Heavy loads would limit my mileage if there is much climbing. That is bad news because limited mileage means even heavier loads.

I might like to try a shorter (maybe 300-600 miles?) trip similar to the terrain and logistics expected on the GPGR this year as kind of a dry run, but I don't feel like we really have a very good handle on what that is.

bikemig 

I will want to check out parts of this proposed trail as I'm close to NE and I'm always up for finding new routes to take on my vintage MTB.

jamawani 

One of the challenges for this route will be camping/lodging.
Towns are few and far between - although they will often let you camp in the town park.
Public lands are even harder to come by. Nearly all the land is privately held.
There are state wildlife areas - some of which allow primitive camping.
But most of them have no potable water and little to zero cover.

Here is a map of the Nebraska Sandhills showing public lands -



The dark green is National Wildlife Refuge land which prohibits camping.
The light green is National Forest land which allows dispersed and developed camping.
(But they were strange non-native forestry experiments in the early 20th century which don't belong.)

The light blue represents state lands much of which - especially the single sections - is privately leased.
Don't camp on sections 16 or 36 unless you are not certain it is open to the public.

Here is the Nebraska online public access atlas - designed primarily for hunting and fishing.
Also, remember that state wildlife areas that do permit camping are funded by hunting and fishing licenses.

Public Access Atlas - Nebraska Game and ParksNebraska Game and Parks |

John N

Mev, I REALLY like the Wind Rose website you posted. Thanks!