smontanaro 

Not sure where this is going yet, but I recently acquired a 1950s Automoto Champion du Monde frame and a few useful parts from 63rickert. It was originally owned by Lionel Bottari, who is, I think, this fellow. (John, correct me if I'm mistaken.) It will require a lot of work. If it turns into a keeper, that will likely include new paint. At this point I've got it stripped of headset and bottom bracket and have been slowly cleaning and scraping the frame. As I understand it, shortly after Lionel purchased it, it was stolen. Lionel had apparently locked the bike but left his key in the lock. (Note to self: never lock a bike and leave the key in the lock.) Lionel stumbled upon it not long afterward, once again locked with his lock, but rattle can (or brush) painted black. Lionel had his spare key, so liberated his bike from the thieves. He scraped off some of the black paint and put the bike into service.

Over the years it underwent some upgrades. Whatever the original deralleurs were (I think Simplex TdF rear and Simplex lever operated front), they are long gone. The drive side dropout was threaded and notched for a Campagnolo-style derailleur. I don't recall what it had when I first took a look at it, perhaps Gran Sport or Record. Those parts stayed with John. I discovered the bottom bracket shell was tapped to British threading (after several tries off-and-on over a few days assuming it was French). It had Stronglight cups and a Campagnolo 68-SS 120Z spindle. On the non-drive side the spindle barely poked its nose out of the cup with its octagonal wrench flats. I guess that setup worked for Lionel, but it seems to me like that might have been a good way to ruin a crank arm.

I am far from hanging any parts on the frame. It will require more than a few hours more of cleaning and black paint removal. Most of the chrome is in surprisingly good shape. There are a couple small pits on the fork crown and there is that rather obvious derailleur notch, but the chrome socks on the frame and fork seem pretty decent. Here are a few before/during photos.

Serial number:




Vitus tubing throughout:




Bottom bracket shell (before is above):



That notched drive side dropout:




The serial number is pretty clearly visible on the non-drive side dropout (540310 and "V" I presume for "Vitus", vs "R" for Reynolds-based frames). I'm less clear about the glyphs on the drive side. There is an Automoto clover, and "49 23". I assume "23" represents the frame size. Any idea what the "49" means? I don't think it's the build year. I think my frame dates from about 1955. I thought I'd seen an Automoto serial number list somewhere, but can't find it now.

The Stronlight bottom bracket appears to be a replacemnt (given the British threaded shell). Can someone tell from these pix if the cups would have been for cottered cranks?

juvela

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yes, it is possible those cups could have come with the "Competition" model Nr. 34 cottered bottom bracket assembly

catalogue page of 1958 -



Verot bottom bracket fittings marking of this era:

fixed cup -

BSC - two rings and eight flats
Metric - one ring and eight flats
Italian - one ring and two flats
Swiss - no rings and eight flats

lockrings -

BSC - four or eight notch
Metric - six notch
Italian - four or eight notch

have you satisfied yourself that shell is not CH?

find it interesting to see that it is late enough to have received a conventional crown rather than one with the Automoto clover symbol thimbles

take your time an enjoy lots of good fun working with this fellow!


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T-Mar

I don't think that the "49" is the year. While there are few extant Simplex catalogues from the 1950s, the couple I've seen from the 1950s (1950 & 1954) show these dropouts having the L. J. SIMPLEX motif, rather than JUY SIMPLEX, as seen on the OP's bicycle. This motif change appears in the 1960 catalogue but given the lack of intervening literature, could have been introduced as early as the 1955 model year. Consequently, assuming the illustrations in the factory documentation are correct, the bicycle would appear to be no earlier than late 1950s.

smontanaro 

That was my first thought. I asked Billy Ketchum who said he didn't think Swiss threaded shells debuted until sometime in the sixties. The threads on the cups lined up with the first Brit bottom bracket I grabbed, and that threaded on at least a few turns. I didn't want to push things though. I'll eventually take it to Billy to have it faced and chased. He can confirm once and for all UK or CH at that point.

3speedslow

Golly, when said lots of cleaning, you weren’t kidding! That BB area! Loving the lavender colour with pin striping.

smontanaro 

As I understand it, that color was very common for Automoto, and perhaps other French companies.

Two things I find very interesting in general about pre-bike boom bikes are box lining and chrome. This has both in spades. It also has a couple nice French touches (in case you needed reminding of its heritage): tri-color decals/stickers on the seat stay caps and at the boundaries between paint and chrome on the frame/fork socks.

randyjawa 

How I wish that I had my Automoto today...

rhm

I've looked at a lot of old catalogs, bicycle manufacturers, component manufacturers, &c. A lot of them used out-of-date images.

​​​​​​But you got me wondering what version of those dropouts was on my 1954 Drysdale. If i find a photo I'll post it here.
My Allegro has one. It's from 1959 or 1960 (i forget which).

iab

Entering the dark side of bikes older than you? Welcome and enjoy the rabbit hole.

bertinjim 

smontanaro -

Can you tell me the weights of the Vitus fork and frame? I have always been curious about these early framesets which do not appear to be Durifort but some other version of Vitus tubing. Thanks.

smontanaro 

Not quite yet. Unless we determine the bike was from 1953 or earlier.

smontanaro 

I'll weigh it when I have a chance. At the moment we're in the midst of a power outage that's lasted about 12 hours so far. It's a bit darker than usual in my basement...

iab

Not to hijack, no Skiptopia? What happened? I got a vax card and a set of hoods with your name on them ....

smontanaro 

Kept trying to up my mileage so I could ride out, have lunch, ride back. Then my mileage tapered off in July. I might yet make it to Crystal Lake on two wheels, but I'd probably have to take Metra at least part of the way home or use my gas powered quadracycle.

RustyJames 

About 1/3 of my bikes are older than I am so I am fairly deep in the rabbit hole. Another 1/3 were built before I was 10 y/o and the remainder are from various decades with the newest from 2018.

“One pill makes you larger, one pill makes you small…”

juvela

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wrt CH shells -

disagree with the Billy date of 1960's for their introduction

have looked at and read about many frankish products from the interwar years and they were fairly common

unfortunately have no document(s) can post

they seem to go back at least as far as the 1930's

have discussed vintage Automoto machines with enthusiasts far more knowledgeable than meself and CH shells seem to have been very much the standard for them

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going to and fro betwixt CH & BSC -

CH has a pitch diameter of 35.0mm and a thread pitch of 1.0 which translates to 25.4TPI

BSC had a pitch dimeter of 34.85mm and a thread pitch of 24TPI

for anyone who has the bottom bracket taps on hand they can run them through to convert one from the other. while certainly not the ideal it has been done.


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rhm

This is the only photo i have found (so far) of the dropouts on my Drysdale. The date on the original invoice (the date the customer paid for and picked up the bike?) was July 30, 1954. The price of the complete bicycle was $75.

https://flic.kr/p/bUmMq2

Sadly the derailleur hanger was drewed in the 70’s.

BTW, Skip, i still have this Simplex Tour-de-France derailleur, if you want such a thing. I bought it for the Drysdale but ended up using a newer derailleur:
https://flic.kr/p/bP5G6D

smontanaro 

Too bad about that dropout, Rudi. 63rickert told me those old style Simplex dropouts came in two versions. Mine has the hanger closer to the centerline of the bike. The second version pushed it farther out, making derailleur compatibility problematic. It's difficult to get most derailleurs to swing in far enough with it. I'd be interested in giving your TdF derailleur a whirl if it's surplus to your needs. Would still need to locate a shifter, but I can make do with a clamp-on dhifter for now.

dddd

This bike appears to be identical to my E. Christophe bicycle, which features incredibly-steep frame angles and which came with a four-speed freewheel.

I feel certain that tho OP's frame had French bb threading at some point, and that the bike likely had cottered cranks like mine.

If the bike will fit the rider using a fairly long stem and with the bar kept fairly low, then it might be an enjoyably-stable ride. Mine is quick as a cat and weighs 22lb with the bottle cage and mid-weight tubulars.

dddd

I've seen several references over the years describing one of these exact bikes as being from 1952, and would like to know if anyone here notices any sort of component detail that would identify my bike's most-likely year of manufacture.

The metal knob on the front shifter might be one such detail, or perhaps the QR nuts or the particular LAM brakeset(?).

At what point in time would a top-level model like this be expected to have more than the four cog freewheel?

Manny66 

I have an Automoto as well, a little earlier than yours. I was able to find information from my Serial # for it from a French website. You can use the Translator feature to look thru the Website.

tontonvelo

dddd

I had assumed that these top-level racing models were contract-manufactured, so didn't use Automoto's trademark tubular crown for this reason.
That these bikes were sold under different marques would seem to support my assumption(?).
As with the top Urago models being made by Cattaneo (I have a re-branded Urago that is Cattaneo-built).

Guessing who the contract builder for these frames was, maybe Oscar Egg?

smontanaro 

If you have an album with more and higher res photos of your bike, I'd love a link so I can see how it's equipped and put together (esp rear derailleur fitment). Does it have serial number info stamped onto either dropout? Was there a relationship between E. Christophe and Automoto that you're aware of (similar to Lygie and Atala, for instance)?

smontanaro 

From the Bureau of Weights and Measures:

• Fork - 778g
• Frame - 1903g
• Seat tube - 60cm ctt
• Top tube - 54cm ctc
• Chainstay - 42.5cm

dddd

I don't know of any pertinent history and I don't have an album, but I'll try to pull the bike out this morning and take it for a ride and photo-shoot.

I was looking at yours and was myself also wondering if mine has any similar numbers stamped on the dropouts.