Orthodoxy Part 1
#127
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Questioning orthodoxy sounds real cool til its not. This thread reminded me of what a buddy of mine told me, don't run into a bar and start a fight, because you'll find one and you may not like what you find. This thread and postulation evidences a few things. First, we live in a culture that reproducible facts are really meaningless commodities. I work in a profession where we have to deal with this daily, and using science and reproducible evidence, the scientific process and conveying this to the public is actually a daunting task sometimes...ie the covid pandemic and the covid vaccine. That will splinter your family and friends faster than a rampant case of dysentery at a Thanksgiving dinner. Facts that are reproducible and evidence is meaningful, and we don't simply get to make up our version of it and re-write history and accounts to please our opinions.
Secondly, like I said, challenging orthodoxy is a real cool thing, til its not. Orthodoxy, conventional thinking, reproducible facts that become 'knowns', and what is a tradition is inherently that way to some extent for a reason. Its been my observation that in a group, if the majority believe item 'A', without looking at the merit of the item, there may well be good reason that the majority of the group is right. Its sometimes just that way, and trusting that to some extent is much easier for me, as I have to control my skeptical attitude and trust in somethings of tamper that with my experience and knowledge. I have to say too that after living my short 51 years, when I have questioned convention/orthodoxy and the why's...and went out on a limb in my thinking, I found out being the only one or a thin remnant of a few that think the same as I do about item 'A', well there are reasons for that as well; chiefly that the few/minority are likely incorrect more times than not. These generalities and there are exceptions, but generally this is what I have seen in life. Again, its real cool to question convention, challenge the orthodox thinking until the facts hit the ground and Newtons Law is proven to still be the same. I'm simply saying, the attitude of the challenge from the OP of orthodoxy was condescending to someone who had done a great deal of work in the area and deserved some respect, as some have observed as well, and here we are with the questions very well answered by many as above. Question orthodoxy away, appear intellectually superior and correct others grammer/spelling, but in the end, facts matter, evidence matters and the knowledge base built so far matters
Secondly, like I said, challenging orthodoxy is a real cool thing, til its not. Orthodoxy, conventional thinking, reproducible facts that become 'knowns', and what is a tradition is inherently that way to some extent for a reason. Its been my observation that in a group, if the majority believe item 'A', without looking at the merit of the item, there may well be good reason that the majority of the group is right. Its sometimes just that way, and trusting that to some extent is much easier for me, as I have to control my skeptical attitude and trust in somethings of tamper that with my experience and knowledge. I have to say too that after living my short 51 years, when I have questioned convention/orthodoxy and the why's...and went out on a limb in my thinking, I found out being the only one or a thin remnant of a few that think the same as I do about item 'A', well there are reasons for that as well; chiefly that the few/minority are likely incorrect more times than not. These generalities and there are exceptions, but generally this is what I have seen in life. Again, its real cool to question convention, challenge the orthodox thinking until the facts hit the ground and Newtons Law is proven to still be the same. I'm simply saying, the attitude of the challenge from the OP of orthodoxy was condescending to someone who had done a great deal of work in the area and deserved some respect, as some have observed as well, and here we are with the questions very well answered by many as above. Question orthodoxy away, appear intellectually superior and correct others grammer/spelling, but in the end, facts matter, evidence matters and the knowledge base built so far matters
#128
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This thread is about the repeating of unverified information.
This thread is not about the author of the idea that H. Tano and Company manufactured bicycles, reportedly.
In Part 3. of this presentation I introduced what I called the second orthodoxy. To do this I quoted several posts from this bikeforums.net.
I was giving the appropriate historical reference to the original idea that H. Tano and Company manufactured bicycles, reportedly. One cannot have a meaningfully presentation of a topic without clear context.
Some members thought it inappropriate to quote other members of this forum and commenting on the quotes. Just as other members of this bikeforums.net have done in this thread.
Some of you have asked, why not talk to the originator of the idea?
First, the originator of the idea and the idea itself are not the problem I am addressing.
The problem is members of this bikeforums.net repeating information that has not been verified or they themselves have not verified.
Second, two members of this bikeforums.net have already asked the originator about his source for "reportedly Tano". Both members received pretty much the same answer, which have been quoted in this thread.
For anyone to ask a third time and expect a different answer . . .
This thread is not about the author of the idea that H. Tano and Company manufactured bicycles, reportedly.
In Part 3. of this presentation I introduced what I called the second orthodoxy. To do this I quoted several posts from this bikeforums.net.
I was giving the appropriate historical reference to the original idea that H. Tano and Company manufactured bicycles, reportedly. One cannot have a meaningfully presentation of a topic without clear context.
Some members thought it inappropriate to quote other members of this forum and commenting on the quotes. Just as other members of this bikeforums.net have done in this thread.
Some of you have asked, why not talk to the originator of the idea?
First, the originator of the idea and the idea itself are not the problem I am addressing.
The problem is members of this bikeforums.net repeating information that has not been verified or they themselves have not verified.
Second, two members of this bikeforums.net have already asked the originator about his source for "reportedly Tano". Both members received pretty much the same answer, which have been quoted in this thread.
For anyone to ask a third time and expect a different answer . . .
#129
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And now, another episode of TL, DR - for those who wish to understand the valid intellectual points of the OP, but do not wish to kill off most of their brain cells to do so:
1. The Japanese firm of H. Tano & Co. were exporters and not manufacturers. Proven fact.
2. There are USITC documents proving that Japanese-made Raleigh bicycles made between 1980 and 1982, carrying N-prefixed serials (not of the previous Nottingham pattern), were manufactured by Matsush¡ta/National; rather than H. Tano and Company, as previously believed.
3. The OP postulates that Centurion bicycles of this era carrying N-prefixed serials, previously thought to be manufactured by H. Tano & Co., were in fact manufactured by Matsush¡ta/National. This is assumed upon the following two points:
-Kurt
1. The Japanese firm of H. Tano & Co. were exporters and not manufacturers. Proven fact.
2. There are USITC documents proving that Japanese-made Raleigh bicycles made between 1980 and 1982, carrying N-prefixed serials (not of the previous Nottingham pattern), were manufactured by Matsush¡ta/National; rather than H. Tano and Company, as previously believed.
3. The OP postulates that Centurion bicycles of this era carrying N-prefixed serials, previously thought to be manufactured by H. Tano & Co., were in fact manufactured by Matsush¡ta/National. This is assumed upon the following two points:
A. The Centurions share the same "N" serial system with the Matsush¡ta/National Raleighs of the same period,
B. These same bicycles have been attributed, incorrectly, to H. Tano & Co.; an impossibility given their status as exporters.
/thread againB. These same bicycles have been attributed, incorrectly, to H. Tano & Co.; an impossibility given their status as exporters.
-Kurt
First, In your statement 3:
I postulated no such thing.
In my post there was a caveat: " if you follow member T-Mar's reasoning as stated above."
You have failed to include that caveat and therefore misrepresented the statement as being my logic.
I do not necessarily agree or disagree with member T-Mar's reasoning as stated in his post.
At the current time, I do not know who manufactured the Centurion bicycles with the "N" prefix serial numbers.
Second, in your statement B.
None of statement B. is what I said in my post.
Again, in my post there was a caveat: " if you follow member T-Mar's reasoning as stated above."
Again, you have failed to include that caveat and therefore misrepresented the statement.
I never said any bicycles have been incorrectly attributed to H. Tano and Company.
I said nothing about "impossibility".
This is your narrative, not mine.
I am trying to prevent incorrect and unverified information from being spread on this bikeforums.net.
What you have just done is exactly what I am trying to get members of bikeforums.net not to do.
Thank-you for providing such a splendid example of what not to do.
The other members of this bikeforum.net are not dummies. They can read and understand for themselves.
They do not need your Cliffs Notes version.
Last edited by cb400bill; 01-04-21 at 09:14 PM.
#130
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The problem is that you can't seem to explain what you wish to get across without being convoluted and occasionally condescending.
If you could do so without being either, others would not misinterpret or belittle what you're trying to say.
-Kurt
P.S.: Given these caveats, how would you rephrase the three statements I postulated?
If you could do so without being either, others would not misinterpret or belittle what you're trying to say.
-Kurt
P.S.: Given these caveats, how would you rephrase the three statements I postulated?
Last edited by cudak888; 01-04-21 at 09:10 PM.
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#131
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Kurt, you are being very diplomatic.
Hummer I agree with cudak888 that it is impossible to follow your logic. Infact, it would appear you are creating your own reality. How much longer do we have to wait for your conclusion?
Hummer I agree with cudak888 that it is impossible to follow your logic. Infact, it would appear you are creating your own reality. How much longer do we have to wait for your conclusion?
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#132
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...nobody does that any more. Most people use Google Translate, and then polish up the most obvious grammatical errors.
e.g.:
Originally Posted by Hummer Major
Et alia membra huius bikeforum.net non misisse Quirites. Legere et intelligere possunt pro se. Et non opus est tibi Cliffs Notes version. Latine scriptum est, non ad transferendum eam sacerdos, et non opus est.
Last edited by cb400bill; 01-04-21 at 09:40 PM.
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#135
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You see, this is where you’re demonstrably incorrect. I joined bikeforums specifically seeking the Cliffs Notes explanations and solutions to my problems, some of which are even related to bicycles. I mean, have you seen the sheer volume of literature included with a derailleur? Don’t be fooled just because they fold that giant sheet of paper with finely printed text down to the size of a postage stamp.
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#137
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While the endeavor of helping to correct an element of bicycle serial number history and categorization is noble, (with cited text, quotes, etc) the premise's (which was fine) introductory sentence ("experiment") and subsequent 'involved' explanation and presentation of the material sent it off course quickly. Titling the thread more descriptively, such as "Orthodoxy Part I: Japanese Serial Number Variances and H. Tano & Co." would have done great service to everyone in that it would have presented, immediately, the potential issue at hand while also bringing in a person/company that this variance/issue revolves around or is related to. That would have given many a BF member a chance to see (quickly/efficiently) whether or not they wanted to find out more. It would also have been a boon to future BF members and internet lurkers/researchers/people in that they would have some key words to help locate this thread (search engine optimization and all of that).
Being as that is not the case, we arrive here, six pages deep and in a bit of a mess. Driving the stake of Fact into the sand of Culturally Held Ideas (or Orthodoxies) as the waters and waves and winds of Culture, Time, and Challenges to Beliefs erode the sand around the stake is something that I see increasingly, especially in those older than I. This is not to say that Fact is not worth holding on to or defending, as many stakes do hold the sand from being eroded away (think tree roots), it's just to say that it is a one man job sometimes, and it can be a losing proposition. And that can depend on how that Fact is presented to others (whether or not they join your cause).
Being as that is not the case, we arrive here, six pages deep and in a bit of a mess. Driving the stake of Fact into the sand of Culturally Held Ideas (or Orthodoxies) as the waters and waves and winds of Culture, Time, and Challenges to Beliefs erode the sand around the stake is something that I see increasingly, especially in those older than I. This is not to say that Fact is not worth holding on to or defending, as many stakes do hold the sand from being eroded away (think tree roots), it's just to say that it is a one man job sometimes, and it can be a losing proposition. And that can depend on how that Fact is presented to others (whether or not they join your cause).
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P.S. I have ridden my bike to this incredible place so it fits into a C&V discussion.
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#139
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Part 10. Conclusion
What can members conclude from all the information presented?
With absolute certainty not very much.
What is needed to resolve this with more certainty is someone fluent in Japanese to review documentation from Japan. I am not qualified for this task.
Also, if someone could produce more than one bicycle that can be authenticated to be manufactured by H. Tano and Company. I will be happy to see them. If authentic, it may help to place other Japanese bicycles of unknown original manufacturer.
Until then each member of this forum will draw their own conclusion.
Did H. Tano and company manufacture bicycle frames?
Or, did H. Tano and company assemble bicycles?
Or were H. Tano and company only exporters of bicycles and other products?
Or did H.Tano and Company do a combination of the above?
I would ask that members state in their posts whether information presented is verified or not and be careful about repeating unverified statements.
With absolute certainty not very much.
What is needed to resolve this with more certainty is someone fluent in Japanese to review documentation from Japan. I am not qualified for this task.
Also, if someone could produce more than one bicycle that can be authenticated to be manufactured by H. Tano and Company. I will be happy to see them. If authentic, it may help to place other Japanese bicycles of unknown original manufacturer.
Until then each member of this forum will draw their own conclusion.
Did H. Tano and company manufacture bicycle frames?
Or, did H. Tano and company assemble bicycles?
Or were H. Tano and company only exporters of bicycles and other products?
Or did H.Tano and Company do a combination of the above?
I would ask that members state in their posts whether information presented is verified or not and be careful about repeating unverified statements.
#140
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I've never seen someone write so much while saying so little. Hopefully we have reached the end of this saga.
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Holy ****.
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A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
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Is the question and answer period open?
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well folks, or maybe just Hummer,
I have a friend that teaches infomatics at UT who is not only fluent in Japanese, but his wife who is a native and also translates for the engineers at Fukishima who are working on radiation containment. I am sure that they could be useful as translators for you, but are you willing to pay the price for deciphering all of the Japanese language? JMHO, Smiles, MH
I have a friend that teaches infomatics at UT who is not only fluent in Japanese, but his wife who is a native and also translates for the engineers at Fukishima who are working on radiation containment. I am sure that they could be useful as translators for you, but are you willing to pay the price for deciphering all of the Japanese language? JMHO, Smiles, MH
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The serious posts in this thread read like the parts of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance that I skipped.
Most of the rest remind me of Monty Python sketches.
Most of the rest remind me of Monty Python sketches.
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
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And quality in a thread can be elusive. Didn't mind the book at all but I was a philosophy student when I read it.
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"It's passed on! This thread is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet it's maker! This is a late thread! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed it to the perch, it would be pushing up the daisies! It's rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. This is an ex-thread!"
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