Drew Eckhardt 

They've diverged, although both have taller head tubes than traditional road frames.

A 56cm (56.5 cm top tube) Secteur has a 190mm head tube.
A 56cm (56.5 cm top tube) Tarmac has a 160mm head tube.

My 55cm (55.5 cm top tube) 1997 Litespeed Natchez has a 120mm head tube, and a 57 (56.5 cm) is 140mm.

Drew Eckhardt 

"Race fit" is lower and more aerodynamic.

"Endurance" is higher and less aerodynamic.

Relative comfort depends on the rider - anatomy, flexibility, core strength, power output.

Carbonfiberboy 

Thanks. That's what I've been noticing. OK for many folks, not so much for me. My '99 52cm Trek has a 96mm head tube, which is probably as good as it get for a small frame like that.

timtak

Sorry to be late, but Yes! I love ＠carpediemracing bike's stem and position and generally, it is just good.

I want to say this over and over again.

General, off-the-shelf or often also, fitted road bike position is styled in the "standard position", based upon the bikes used by racers in the peloton, where cyclists are drafting.

Thusly
1) If you ride in groups then this standard position is great. (Who rides in a peloton? maybe only 20%? 10%? 5% of riders? I have never ridden in a group.)

2) If you ride on your own but (like most of us) have a belly, then you can feel like you are a TDF racer using the "standard position". The "standard position" is great also for those most of us who have bellies.

3) If you manage to get rid of your belly (difficult) and ride on your own then the "standard position" is stupid. You should be riding in a peloton-less, "time trial" position.

4) This does not mean you should be riding a "time trial" bike because because "time trial" bike handlebars have no brakes where the gears are. Road bike handlebars are good for all of us that do not ride in a peloton and ride on roads with cars (unlike time trials).

Hence, stems as used by　＠carpediemracing are, or should be, a commonplace, obvious, normal positon for normal non-peloton non-pro road bike riders.

B1KE

Theoretically how much more speed would I gain in a race position vs endurance position?

Miele Man

Sometimes a small change can feel good on a short ride but be agony on a long ride. Other times a small change on a long ride can erase pain and let you ride longer. the ONLY way to tell for sure what WORKS for YOU is to make the change and then ride a decent distance to determine the effects the change has.

BTW, it's not a good idea to change many things at once (I know you only changed the stem) because then it's very hard to tell exactly where the benefit or pain comes from.

Cheers

catgita

Race vs. Endurance is such a broad and arbitrary category that it has no meaning for the individual. One mans race fit is another's endurance.

On short rides, where your power output stays high the whole time, low bars should work well. Much of your weight is on your feet anyway. On long rides, as your power drops off, more weight falls on your hands instead, and can cause much discomfort. I use deep drop rando bars, which give me a wide variety of hand and back positions on one bike. I am just as fast in the drops or ramps, but that is because I can put out more power in the ramps, but cut the wind better in the drops. So it is a wash.

If you compare race models to endurance models across a product line, the numbers that affect fit don't always vary that much for a given size. The difference is mainly the choice of stem. Ideally you could test ride each bike with the same fit, same saddle and same tires. But most magazines talk about the fit like it is inseparable from the bike and the same for everyone, and the tires hugely affect ride quality. Otherwise, most bikes would seem very much the same.

B1KE

Thanks for your response.

brian416

IMO, race vs endurance really doesn't matter unless your fit is right. I rode my Specialized SL2 across the US and was perfectly comfortable because my fit was. Or react, I never wished for an endurance bike.

Silvercivic27

Timtak for President! (Of the UCI)

StanSeven

Then everyone would have to wear funny glasses.

Doge

A race position requires more power to be comfortable. So lets say you are 150lbs and you normally ride at 150W. If you want to be comfortable bump power to about 250, less is likely OK. If you don't, in a race position you will carry more weight on arms and likely a 3rd pressure point in the saddle. So now with your new power we can compare positions. My guess (experience based, no calculations here) is you would go about 22mph sitting up in your endurance position. You'd pick up 1-2 mph if you drop down about 7in in front. So you could cruze around 24. Kick it to 350W and go 28 vs about 25 sitting more upright.

Campag4life

A good question and your perception is correct. Answer is generally a more closed hip position does reduce power output to the pedals slightly. So why do so many very good cyclists ride so slammed?...including Tri riders who ride with the most closed hip angle thereby reducing power? For the simple reason that air drag is by far king in robbing watts compared to slight power reduction due to a flatter torso closing hip angle. Not even close.
Other thing is a common mistake many make when riding. Pretty common to sit on a road bike like its a cruiser. Trying to get torso flatter in this pelvis position results in a big bend of the lumbar which is bad for the back and power output. Pretty hard to get in an aero position by sitting with your pelvis like you would at a football game in the bleachers. One must learn to rotate their pelvis forward to keep good posture in the lower back as they rotate their torso into a flatter position. This takes practice to acquire this position as natural. Then, less power is lost to the pedals as well as the hip angle is less closed. A further nuance is better posture on the bike elongates the back, puts less strain on the neck AND requires a longer reach to the handlebars because the effective length of the back is longer when its closer to a straight line versus a big curve. Posture is a big deal on a road bike and many ride with poor posture.
FWIW I do not ride real slammed because my neck screams after 1 hour in the saddle if I do. But aero is critical to fast riding and why I work on riding as aero as I can flirting with some neck fatigue.
Hope that helps.

Campag4life

You may think its a wash but it isn't...unless you are changing your torso angle on the hoods which is very aero if you bend forward because your forearms are less in the wind as with being in the drop positon.
Aero by far trumps a more closed hip angle slightly reducing power... not even close.
Tri bikes steady state are vastly faster than a road bike in steady state flat riding conditions for a given rider where the hip angle is slightly more closed even with a more forward saddle position relative to the BB.

Campag4life

Doge, how long can you generate 350 watts?

PepeM

'Junior can...'

Heathpack 

I cannot answer this exactly because my fitter does not use the terms "race" and "endurance" to describe positions on the bike (he uses the terms "road," "TT," "track," and "mountain." But I can tell you that I gain about 2 mph on my TT bike, my most aerodynamic position, over my road bike- sort of, its kind of comparing apples to oranges. Bottom line though is that position can make a big difference.

How low you take it matters too- on the TT bike, with my armpads in their current location, I generate the same power on my TT bike as on my road bike. One cm lower armpad position and I'm down on power 5-7%. So low is good but too low is not.

Doge

Me 5-10 min., 15min if a long grade. The purpose was for illustration which is why a racing position may not be the best for non-racers.

Heathpack 

You have a power meter?

Doge

A few. Why?

Heathpack 

Because I remember you saying Junior races TTs without one. I assumed that was because one was unavailable to him.

Doge

Nope - at least 3, sometimes four. https://www.bikeforums.net/33-road-bi...l#post18432941

Then got the Strava hills too :-)

Heathpack 

Sorry no time to read all that, am at work.

I posted about this recently in the Master's Racing forum. Its a little different if you're a woman, I think, or at least for me as a woman. Realistically you are not as likely to be riding in a group that is going to push and challenge you, so you find your own way a little more. For me, the power meters are completely invaluable, I actually learn a lot from them and am not too interested at this stage in riding without them. In a certain way, my power meters are my training partners, they are the things that push me like teammates push men who race. Training-wise and racing-wise (TTs and endurance racing, not crits or road races), I just find them completely helpful, to the extent that I can't see riding without them if they are available.

Not in any way implying that you and Junior are doing it wrong. More that I'm continually amazed by the variety of experience here on BF, how sometimes something that I can't even imagine doing is something that makes perfect sense for someone else (who has a different cycling context) to do.

Doge

My post was responding to the thread topic on position.

Relative power (to rider weight, and even arm and torso length vs legs) matters to comfort and position.
Also what matters is how fast you are. If you are doing your best and going under 20mph no point in a race position. If you are doing your best and going 25+ it matters more. That may not have anything to do with the riders ability, and could just be a hill. Which is why on hill TTs riders are not in "race positions" - relative to a road.

There are also those used- to the race position. Hip rotation, bend at lower back and almost hyper-extended neck. So an ex-racer may be used to it.
You can find video of Eddie and Bernard riding tandem together - they are pretty upright, but still less so that the typical rec rider.

woodboy

I couldn't read through the entire thread but, in case it hasn't been mentioned previously, it sounds like your stem WAS flipped and you un-flipped it.