View Poll Results: in your experience which side spokes break most.
Right or drive side
21
61.76%
Left or non-drive
9
26.47%
both roughly equally
4
11.76%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll
Spoke failure survey
01-01-24, 04:23 PM
#26
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Bump.
Please help expand the data pool by adding your own.
Please help expand the data pool by adding your own.
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FB
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FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
01-01-24, 05:41 PM
#27
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Bump
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
01-01-24, 05:54 PM
#28
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If I'm reading the premise correctly, you're trying to gather data on spoke failures due to fatigue alone. I dig it, but at the risk of jinxing myself, don't have anything to contribute!
01-10-24, 12:40 AM
#29
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There's a post here about 2 breaks in a new wheel before 200 miles, which is very fast for a fatigue failure, though its possible.
So, I'm not looking for causes as much as seeing if there's a pattern.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
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01-10-24, 02:12 AM
#30
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There's always been debate on the issue of spoke tension as it relates to spoke breakage.
I'm doing some research on the subject and realize there's helpful empirical evidence based on the large pool of failures and the tension difference in dished rear wheels.
So, this is both for people who've personally experienced spoke breakage, and for mechanics who've seen plenty of it.
Please answer ONLY based on personal experience or observation, based on single instances, or based on a significant difference in frequency. The "both" is for when neither is materially more common.
Note also, please report only elbow failures, excluding spokes that broke for other reasons, ie. a stick jammed into the wheel, spokes notched by chain, etc.
Thanks,
FB
BTW, later I may try a similar survey based on elbow in or out, or "pulling" vs. "pushing"
I'm doing some research on the subject and realize there's helpful empirical evidence based on the large pool of failures and the tension difference in dished rear wheels.
So, this is both for people who've personally experienced spoke breakage, and for mechanics who've seen plenty of it.
Please answer ONLY based on personal experience or observation, based on single instances, or based on a significant difference in frequency. The "both" is for when neither is materially more common.
Note also, please report only elbow failures, excluding spokes that broke for other reasons, ie. a stick jammed into the wheel, spokes notched by chain, etc.
Thanks,
FB
BTW, later I may try a similar survey based on elbow in or out, or "pulling" vs. "pushing"
Thinking out loud:
It might be a good idea to "harvest" data from a busy bicycle shop. Assess wheels with broken spokes and write down the data.
- Which side spoke broke and where (elbow or the nipple).
- Tension: is it low/high/optimal, and is it even.
Does that sound reasonable?
01-10-24, 02:33 AM
#31
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A problem I see with this methodology is the report (in)consistency.
Thinking out loud:
It might be a good idea to "harvest" data from a busy bicycle shop. Assess wheels with broken spokes and write down the data.
- Which side spoke broke and where (elbow or the nipple).
- Tension: is it low/high/optimal, and is it even.
Does that sound reasonable?
Thinking out loud:
It might be a good idea to "harvest" data from a busy bicycle shop. Assess wheels with broken spokes and write down the data.
- Which side spoke broke and where (elbow or the nipple).
- Tension: is it low/high/optimal, and is it even.
Does that sound reasonable?
FWIW, I've no need for accuracy, or "meaningful" results because I'd apply the same "correlation doesn't imply causation" rule that I apply to ALL statistical data. (yes, I'm a statistics skeptic) IF the data are heavily skewed enough to indicate anything, it would be an avenue for exploration to find the specific process so we could then talk about causation.
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FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
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01-10-24, 02:53 AM
#32
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Yes, there are other ways, but with the large number of people talking about wheels here, including pros and those who've broken a spoke or two, I was hoping for a large representative sample. If enough people respond, it'll suit my needs.
FWIW, I've no need for accuracy, or "meaningful" results because I'd apply the same "correlation doesn't imply causation" rule that I apply to ALL statistical data. (yes, I'm a statistics skeptic) IF the data are heavily skewed enough to indicate anything, it would be an avenue for exploration to find the specific process so we could then talk about causation.
FWIW, I've no need for accuracy, or "meaningful" results because I'd apply the same "correlation doesn't imply causation" rule that I apply to ALL statistical data. (yes, I'm a statistics skeptic) IF the data are heavily skewed enough to indicate anything, it would be an avenue for exploration to find the specific process so we could then talk about causation.
I'm thinking along the lines of:
- spoke side: L / R
- breaking point: elbow / nipple
- tension generally even: (can an up to +-20% variation be considered even enough for the intended purposes?) Yes / No
- tension on the broken side: Low / Optimal / High
Not sure if it makes sense to gather separate data for right, and left side spokes, or whether it's better to just concentrate on the broken spoke side.
What do you think?
Relja
Last edited by Bike Gremlin; 01-10-24 at 02:56 AM.
01-10-24, 03:16 AM
#33
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Yes, I have plenty of ideas, but have no desire to seek comprehensive data on multiple variables.
I approach engineering problems with a divide and conquer approach, looking for promising areas of consideration, and tabling "distractions".
FWIW, I've been building, thinking about, and teaching about wheels for 55 years, so am comfortable deciding how and where I want to explore farther.
I approach engineering problems with a divide and conquer approach, looking for promising areas of consideration, and tabling "distractions".
FWIW, I've been building, thinking about, and teaching about wheels for 55 years, so am comfortable deciding how and where I want to explore farther.
__________________
FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
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01-11-24, 10:44 AM
#34
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For me it's been non-drive side.
99% of the time at the elbow.
Same location for drive side.
The few breakages I see at the nipple will be:
1. 1.8mm / 15g setups.
2. Spokes that are too short creating a lack of nipple support - not penetrating the inner wall of the rim after all is said and done.
Pretty much most if not all mid-span breakages I've seen since 1984 are mechanical - intrusions - accidents - vandalism.
Vandalism does happen here in the Bay Area - there are people out there who f&ck with other peoples bikes unfortunately.
=8-|
99% of the time at the elbow.
Same location for drive side.
The few breakages I see at the nipple will be:
1. 1.8mm / 15g setups.
2. Spokes that are too short creating a lack of nipple support - not penetrating the inner wall of the rim after all is said and done.
Pretty much most if not all mid-span breakages I've seen since 1984 are mechanical - intrusions - accidents - vandalism.
Vandalism does happen here in the Bay Area - there are people out there who f&ck with other peoples bikes unfortunately.
=8-|
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
01-11-24, 10:52 AM
#35
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Do you have any ideas about an idiot-friendly data sheet that could be printed and left at a bike shop?
I'm thinking along the lines of:
- spoke side: L / R
- breaking point: elbow / nipple
- tension generally even: (can an up to +-20% variation be considered even enough for the intended purposes?) Yes / No
- tension on the broken side: Low / Optimal / High
Not sure if it makes sense to gather separate data for right, and left side spokes, or whether it's better to just concentrate on the broken spoke side.
What do you think?
Relja
I'm thinking along the lines of:
- spoke side: L / R
- breaking point: elbow / nipple
- tension generally even: (can an up to +-20% variation be considered even enough for the intended purposes?) Yes / No
- tension on the broken side: Low / Optimal / High
Not sure if it makes sense to gather separate data for right, and left side spokes, or whether it's better to just concentrate on the broken spoke side.
What do you think?
Relja
On the hand we want the tension to be high . . .
. . . but FB would tell you himself what it's like working with Martano's and Fiamme's - and assuming he's done wood rims - the same.
And Jobst Brandt if he were still alive would remind everyone that ALL wheels and THEIR spokes benefit from proper stress relieving.
And how do you check for proper stress relieving of a wheel YOU didn't build AND cannot determine the build sorce thereof for follow-up?
These uncontrolled or hard-to-verify variables rear their ugly heads real quick.
That's why we have lab testing.
Here's a gem on lab testing from the ghost himself:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/...dnsoldered.htm
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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01-11-24, 11:35 AM
#36
Senior Member
Honestly can't remember the last time I had a spoke failure. I did recently have a rim failure on a Fulcrum Racing 6 rear wheel.
01-11-24, 11:56 AM
#37
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Im 85, and now weight right at 180, and I have never broken a spoke. OTOH I do watch the road very carefully, and do not run over bumps or pot holes if I can help it.
