Kadowaki

This is in reference to the Hold Your Line thread. I raced the Cat 4 road race at that venue the day before. Basically you have 100+ riders on a single lane (yellow line rule) and with everyone 3-4 across there is no room to maneuver and almost all Cat 4 races finish in a bunch. So it's like when little kids play soccer, they're all crowded around the ball in a bunch.
It seems that Cat 4 racers don't usually have the power to break away (unless they're on their way up). There's not much of a selection. Just one big peloton and a sprint at the end largely dictated by whoever starts up front.

jsutkeepspining

thats why you dont sprint for 15 place

MDcatV

because there are so many cat 4s, it's a promoters money maker group.

there's always alot of space in a cat 4 field, one can almost always move up. it's a skill that needs to be worked on and honed in.

i was a 4 in the mid 2000s, so not that long ago. off the top of my head, i can think of 6 examples of races that were won by breakaway, including 1 crit and 5 road races. only 1 of the road races had any real climbing to it, so it was races where the racers had to make the race. it can be done, but is not the norm.

Brian Ratliff

Why would changing the field limits change the situation? So, instead of 25 rows of 4 wide, you have, what 19? People are 4 wide on a road race because they feel like they can be 4 wide. The point of view that you can't maneuver in that amount of space given 40 miles is the difference between Cat 4 and Cat 3.

Creatre

The problem with not being able to move up in the cat4 races is that people are content with their position in the peloton and there isn't enough driving force at the front. No one is willing to do any work because they isn't much teamwork in our cat. I was at that same race, and I will agree it was impossible to move up (though I did end up getting 4th after being overly aggressive getting to/maintaining position at the front). I have done P/1/2 races before when I was in Collegiate A, and it is simply amazing how easy it is to flow from the front/rear of the peloton freely.

topflightpro

How are you a cat 4 if you raced Collegiate A?

carpediemracing 

Only significant changes in field limit size would have an effect, hence the 50 rider limit for Cat 5s.

That course isn't very helpful in promoting a safe race. I find the safest races are the extremely technical ones, the ones where you say, Omg no one's gonna make a lap before they crash! kind of course.

One year we raced in some residential area of Tarrytown NY. There was a short, steep downhill leading into a 90 degree right turn. There was a sewer grate on the left just before the turn in point. The grate was level so it acted like a ramp. You had to go over the grate else you'd be too far inside to make the turn (since you were flying down this steep hill on a narrow road). Everyone would hit the grate, get a bit of air, land hard, then jam on the brakes as soon as they landed. You had about a second of hard, hard braking, then you just dropped into the turn, leaned as hard as possible, and just cleared the curb on the turn out. You couldn't go slower because of the hill and the fact that you couldn't brake while you were in the air, so everyone has identical entry speeds, corner speeds, etc. After a lap or two of being petrified it was fun.

No crashes. Everyone had a great time, even just pack foddering. It was incredible fun blasting through that turn. I don't remember how I finished, I don't even remember the rest of the course. That corner was just plain fun.

Other races where I thought the course was close to impossible to ride around, no crashes.

Then you get wide open sweeping courses that are smooth and stuff and you get massive massive crashes because it's too easy, too wide, too smooth.

Psimet2001 

+1 to technical courses being safer. The most dangerous races I have been in are: 1 - a 30+ 4/5 race at a auto racetrack. Wide lanes with no real corners - all sweeping. Carnage. The final sprint was like something out of a war movie.

....and my all time least favorite - meaning most dangerous crit I was ever in - Masters 30+ 4/5 (see a trend here) at Sherman Park in Chicago. Last year. It's a large sweeping oval course that is flat as a pancake. Designed as a sort of outside velodrome/bike race park back in Chicago's early years it simply has no corners. That course is so un-selective that I am able to race it with an extra 20-40 pounds of weight and still stay in the top 10-15 racers the whole race....simply because I can move around in a pack. There were so many wrecks in that race - all throughout the race - that I just became shell-shocked. At one point the guy riding second wheel just pinwheeled out and went down for no reason. There was no where safe in that race.

So...what does this mean for field size? These were 4/5 mixed fields - meaning that the field limits were 75 racers. I have been in safer races with over 100 racers. The course has more to do with safety than the field size does....

Debusama

The idea behind limiting the cat-5 field size is not to throw people who've never raced before into a huge tight pack. If not after 10 races, when are people going to be ready for a big pack? I think the problems you mentioned will exist whether it's a 40 or a 100-person pack in a nontechnical crits. A hilly/windy road race will split the pack up and spit people out the back, as will a technical crit. The only large-field races I've done have had enough technical elements to spread things out enough that I've never experienced what you're talking about.

Monkeyclaw

That's pretty ironic, considering the crash that sent me to the hospital was at an auto track with 5's. I thought it would be safer because of the easy run-offs around the whole track but there was almost a crash every lap (which should have been an indicator to me...). Lots of turns (10), but something about the course was causing people to do crazy things.

I was in the 4/5 earlier and it was pretty crazy too. Lots of crashed again, but I wasn't involved in any in that race.

TWD

the Tuesday Night World series (Pacific Raceway) in Seattle area is very similar; it has a few courses but regularly uses a flat auto track. Its really very safe and the width of the road makes for a good fast race. knock on wood

Brian Ratliff

I think the wider, non-technical courses f- up the lower Cats more than the upper Cats. I've seen technical crit courses (e.g. Twilight Crit in Portland, for those local to me) that have eaten the p/1/2 field alive with a crash every lap, while the lower fields get off relatively easy. On a non-technical course in a lower category race, more people can get up to the front and cruise at full speed instead of just chasing wheels and closing gaps, thus the whole field becomes a big clusterf- with everyone bunched together, churning; the back of the field constantly overtaking the front, at kind of middling speeds. Contrast this to the upper category races on non-technical courses where they just chill until someone attacks, then a whole series of guys take fliers to try to bridge and everyone starts going 30+mph and we are back to chasing wheels and closing gaps.

JAX_11

Just finished the Chain of Lakes Cat 4 road race. we were combined with the 5s and had close to 90 racers. there were no fewer than 4 crashes and One insane arguement between a cat 4 and cat 5 racer about the cat 5s ike handling skills or lack there of. Cat 5 had enough and punched him in the shoulder then peloton yellowed at both of them then everyone was happy.

mattm

You have options:

a) learn to move up - sometimes all you have to do is ask

b) use the yellow line, sparingly

c) use the (unpaved) shoulder - some people do, I don't

d) move up in turns

zigmeister

I don't know what happened this weekend at Fort Meade/Chain of Lakes RR. Like Jax said, it was 80+ riders.

Last year Cat 4/5 were almost always combined for RRs. Then due to complaints about the newb issues, as well as wanting long races, they vowed to combine the Cat 3/4s for RRs.

Well, it has been mostly that so far, until this past weekend. Combined Cat 4/5. The strict yellow line rule in effect with the motorcycle nazi ref running up the left side in the other lane screaming/beeping his horn about guys crossing over, winds blowing 20+mph all day, combined large field 80+...yep, multiple crashes.

They say combined Cat 4/5 fields will be limited to 75 riders??? Why they don't just split the groups, let the Cat 4s go off 5 minutes ahead is beyond me. It is an enigma Florida racing.

Psimet2001 

4/5 is limited by USAC to 75 racers. 5=50 racers and 4=100.

Jancouver

Why? Because it is more fun when 150 morons are crashing left and right. If you are looking for an adventure and have good health insurance I would recommend Dana Point GP. Six corners + 150 riders = Fun https://www.danapointgrandprix.com/wp...2012_page2.jpg

Last year there was just six crashes in one race and about half the field crash out

JAX_11

At least the Race of the West in clermont will be a combined 3/4 field with the 5s racing by themselves. It will be nice to race a distance over 50 miles. 70 miles will be a welcome change.

Brian Ratliff

Careful with this one. I did this once in a race where there were nasty bushes - goatheads, probably - on the shoulders and ended up with two flats. The thorns didn't punch through simultaneously though, so I ended up chasing back to the field just in time for my other tire to go flat. Was riding on the rim when I caught the wheel car and knocked on his window to get a new spare. Later that night I pulled out at least half a dozen thorns out of each tire.

chefxian

My favorite race of the year. The 4's race was lame last year. Broken bikes, motorcycles crashing into racers, good stuff. Kinda funny considering the moved the start finish to make it safer after the sunglasses throwing incident.

Snap

Yeah, but this is Florida. Races never sell out! There is always room for one more racer. You know, to give everyone a chance to race.

carpediemracing 

When a promoter overfills the field, at least with USAC, they have no more insurance, not for anyone. It's no longer a race run under USAC auspices because it isn't being held under USAC auspices.

gsteinb

say what, now? So let's take the example of sunday's NY spring series 3/4 race where the promoter changed the field limit and allowed significantly more than 100 riders (I don't know what the posted field limit was). Are you saying that race went off uninsured due to that fact? Sub question: could you please drop that nugget over at NY Velocity? I'm praying that guy gets his permits pulled and someone with a clue takes over that series again.

shovelhd

Bahati?

jwible

Please link to that bombshell if/when it goes off.