gauvins

@prathmann -- here's the link to the original post you were referring to.

The thread itself is interesting even though the results are puzzling and several speculations are offered to explain away this counter-intuitive finding. No replication as far as I know. You may want to read this thread, where Jobst Brandt explains his rationale for never oiling a dirty chain.

prathmann

Yes, I've seen Brandt's reasoning in the past. But in the absence of any clear evidence in support of cleaning I really don't see the point of doing anything other than a quick wiping of the exterior of the chain. And that's just from the standpoint of cleanliness, not because of any expectation of increased chain durability.

My counter to Brandt is based on my experience with telescope mirror grinding where grit of a specific size is deliberately introduced to grind away and thereby change the surface shape of the glass. After only a few moments of moving the blank against the tool, the grit is pushed out to the edges and only clear water remains in the interface. So one must constantly keep moving the grit back into the middle. I'd expect the same process to occur inside a chain which is adequately oiled. I.e. any grit quickly migrates to the outside leaving clear lubricant at the actual interface where wear occurs.

I haven't seen any indication of a replication of the split-chain experiment either. Would have been nice if some of the people who criticized the particular cleaning technique had conducted their own experiment to confirm that a better technique would actually lead to greater durability.

gauvins

Brilliant observation. Had never considered the situation this way.

I'll add that industrial chain manuals always refer to the importance of proper lubrication, but never about the importance of grit removal. So your argument makes sense. (this being said, there are countless sources arguing for the thorough cleaning of bicycle chains....)

Hmmm... So, starting now, I'll clean one chain and not clean the other. It'll probably take a decade or so before I reach a conclusion, but in the meantime I'll take comfort in the idea that some kind of sloppy replication is under way

staehpj1

I have had good luck using Boeshield or Prolink and cleaning with solvents or detergents as little as possible. I just apply lube, spin the pedals a minute and wipe the chain off as thoroughly as I can. The chain usually stays pretty clean and shiny and my chains have generally lasted somewhere in the 10,000 mile range.

If the chain gets loaded with dirt or sand, I may need to clean a bit more aggressively, but even then I try to stay with either low pressure water wash or a spray down with WD40. I generally have been able to avoid that treatment most of the time when on tour.

I am of the opinion that aggressive cleaning with solvents or detergents often does more harm than good, so I keep it to a minimum.

chrisx

Not a good test. The grit on the dirty chain will have a sand paper effect on the cogs, and wear them out, both chains are going to stretch to the size of the grove between the teeth of the cog. No one seems to understand the cause and effect between chain and cog. Chain stretch = bigger space between the teeth on the cog. Both chains are going to stretch too that same space.

Do clean your bicycle, and your chian, and your cogs. A clean chain and cogs will last a little longer, not a lot longer, a little longer.


If you find it to embarrassing to use an old tooth brush and discarded shop rag to clean your drivetrain, buy a $5 park tool.

Park Tool’s GSC-1 GearClean™ Brush has a unique design
A large comfortable handle with a curved, toothed-end reaches dirt deep between the gears, and tough nylon bristles clean the derailleur and chain
Saves wear and tear on your chain and freewheel
Works great on brakes or other places where dirt collects
10-speed compatible
Handy size for quick cleaning anywhere
Made of sturdy nylon

The last time I needed a chain on tour, the guy in Sisters wanted $70 for a piece of sram. I was able to make it to the rei in Bend and pay $26 for a shimano chain.

[Workers exposed to solvents may continue to experience cognitive difficulties decades later, according to new findings by Harvard School of Public Health ]
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hs...-brain-damage/

No solvents on my bicycle.
One more reason for biodiesel

djb

whenever I do a rag clean of a chain, I always do a quick chainring wipe down of the three rings, a quick "rag squeeze" clean of both jockey wheels, derailleur exteriors, and then a "rag floss" of the cassette. Does a great job of all the various parts, including the chain, and all I have to do is bring an old shirt rag with me, and or pick up the invariable clean looking lost shirt at the side of the road at some point so I have another one if the first one gets too grotty.

all that to say is that keeping the drivetrain clean with some elbow, well finger, grease, does a great job and keeps the "eroding gritty gunk" off all the parts that its best not to have the stuff on.

and like with any cleaning, if you do it regularly, its super fast to do. Let the gunk build up and then it takes a lot more time to deal with.

u235

I replace my chain when I need a filler to get free shipping.

boomhauer

That's what I thought until I kept passing all these Texaco stations with free paper towels ( located just above the windshield squeegee).

djb

I'll use paper towels at times, but it can't match cloth for really hard use and cassette flossing without tearing or ripping. Plus it's faster and I'm lazy so just want it done quickly.

saddlesores

problem here is that the two parts of the chain are not subjected to the
same conditions independently. the gunk on the dirty chain will spread to
the cassette and to the clean chain. not knowing the specifics of the lube
used, could be allowing more and bigger grit particles onto the bearing
surfaces of the clean chain while the dirty chains "pores" are blocked. so
the grit carried by the dirty chain is constantly being fed into the clean one.
plus there is the combined effect of (at least) three grinding processes that
may work at different rates, with no understanding of the relationship: dirty
chain bearing surfaces, clean chain bearing surfaces, cassette cogs....

i'd be more inclined to take it seriously if two identical drivetrains were put
together in a sealed environmental enclosure and subjected to identical
conditions, with one cleaned at specific intervals, as a starting point.

prathmann

I agree that would be a more convincing experiment - but with a real world rather than sealed enclosure). But much harder to conduct unless you have a second rider willing to go on all the same rides and then switching off who has the dirty chains so the effect of any difference in riding style/weight/etc. can be evaluated. That's hard to arrange over the 5000 or more miles to do the experiment so I'm not hopeful anyone will volunteer to conduct it.

While the experiment that was done suffers from the cleaned chain picking up grit from the cog and chain wheel teeth it still seems to me that it should show some of the benefit from cleaning. The fact that no benefit at all was shown and in fact there was faster wear is pretty convincing to me until I'm shown some different results from either an equivalent or better controlled experiment.

chrisx

Chain wear. It’s something mentioned all too often in bicycle maintenance guides, but rarely correctly understood.

Bicycle chain wear explained - BikeRadar

chain checkers are not equal
"These are dependent on hand pressure to take a reading and, depending on how much pressure that is, they can be way off.

[Yes these gauges are affected by roller diameter variances, but I'd much rather replace a chain that's suspected of wear than replace an entire drivetrain later on.]

"The likes of KMC, SRAM, Park Tool and Abbey Bike Tools all agree that the 0.5 percent marking on most chain checkers is a safe point to replace the chain before cassette wear becomes an issue. You can push it out toward the 0.75 percent, but you risk overcooking the situation depending on the checker."

_______________------------------------------------------------------------------------_____________________
"Remember, using a chain beyond its intended wear limit will prematurely wear out your cogs and chainrings so staying on top of this routine maintenance task can save you a lot of cost and hassle in the long run."
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...icle-section-5

pataspen

I fully agree. Last summer I rode to Argentina. 8000+ miles. I added lube every few days and wiped off the excess. I replaced the chain in Panama, replaced chain, cassette and chainrings in Peru. I had zero issues with the drivetrain the length of the trip.

I can't see how carrying an extra chain or spending time deep cleaning the chain would have had any positive impact on my trip.

gauvins

Curious about how you crossed the Darien Gap. (boat from where to where?)

WRT drivetrain, matter of perspective I guess. Your experience is not unusual (going through a complete drivetrain in less than 10K miles). In my mind, carrying a second chain (which in my case is expected to deliver... probably up to 15K miles) is preferable to hunting for parts. But I can perfectly understand that other people do prefer otherwise.

KD5NRH

If it's sufficiently filthy, stop at the nearest WalMart or auto parts store for a can of Brakleen, (the red can) and hose it off with that, then relube with White Lightning appropriate to the riding conditions.

That said, I do it mainly just to cut down on the hand cleaning after having to handle the chain. (Fixing a rear flat or whatever.) If it's not slinging grit and grease, it's just not worth it to try to extend the life of a $10-14 part by a few miles.

saddlesores

so no chain cleaning at all? don't wipe down once a week or once a month?
nothing after a muddy or rainy ride? just ride maintenance-free for 10K?

let's just add this to the "disagreements" thread.


worth it to extend the life of the much more expensive cassettes and
chain rings?

staehpj1

I do almost no cleaning and get 10k miles or so out of chains. I do lube every few days and wipe the excess lube off.

Now and then, I have rinsed off with low pressure water rinse or hit a chain with WD40 when it picked up a lot of sand or something, but that has been a fairly rare occurrence and definitely not the norm. I did the wd-40 or the water thing after a wheel dip on the TA and after a stay in Camp 4 in Yosemite on the SC. I think I may have done it once on the ST. The rest of my tours I don't think I did at all.

Around home my MTB does get the water rinse pretty frequently, but I am in sandy Florida and trail ride daily.

For the cassettes and rings, getting external grit off once in a while probably helps. Any aggressive chain cleaning probably doesn't. In any case... My cassettes and rings seem to last a very long time, so I figure my minimal cleaning is good enough. WRT cassette and ring wear the biggest thing is to watch for chain elongation and replace when it hits 1-1/16 - 1-1/8" per 12 links.

djb

staehp, what speeds are your bikes? 7, 8?
I'm fairly certain I've said this before, but as a light guy who doesnt stress a chain much, and who also like you just does the rag thing regularly and lubing as well, I generally reach the 5-6000km mark at about 1/16 with 9 speed stuff, and it was probably a bit more with 7 and 8 speed.

re the 1/16 rule, I have tended to notice a slow but slight "sloppiness" in my shifting when I get at or past the 1/16 mark, and a new chain feels that the shifting sharpens up a bit. Plus I figure given that when I change my chains at that point, the new ones dont skip, so this is why I keep the 1/16 point as my "change to a new chain" point, and in any case, I tend to ride about 4-5000km per year , but over at least two bikes, and the km per bike changes from year to year, so every year or two lets say is still fine for me to do a chain change and worry less about the cassettes or chainrings.

staehpj1

My heavy touring bike that I did the TA and some other loaded tours with has a 9 speed cassette. That is the one that I actually did the best job of keeping track of the mileage on the chain and know that it went about 10k miles.

The bike I did the ST with carrying an ultralight load was a 7 speed, I am less sure of the mileage on that chain since it was spread over different usages over quite a few years. It served in a number of roles between 1990 and now and is currently serving as my adult daughter's commuter.

I have a couple 10 speed bikes but they have less mileage on them and I did a poor job of keeping track of their mileage, so I really don't know with any accuracy how their chains have held up, but my impression is that they seem to be doing okay.

J.Higgins 

So far my tours have been limited to three this year, 131, 278, and 440 miles respectively. I carried Boeshield with me, and used it after a daily wipedown at camp (or inn). If I do the Southern Tier next year, my plan is to do daily maintenance of this sort with a weekly wash-out with a can of brake cleaner, then relube. I normally do waxxing at home, but its not compatible with being on the road. There are caveats and qualifiers to every method I think. I just choose what I can do at the time, and the reality is that any effort you make towards a cleaner, healthier, lubi-er chain is better than nothing.

chrisx

Does this say you are carrying a second chain for 15,000 miles? (fifteen thousand.)
Why is it better to change cassette, chainrings, derailleur, and chain all in one day? Why is it not better to change the chain based on the amount of wear, and keep the same cassette and chainrings in good shape? Why not do maintenance? On a touring bike, should not things work properly? Do you wait for a cable to break before you change it? Are the teeth on your derailleur pulleys pointed? Do your brake levers need to be pushed back out manually? Because you do not oil and grease the cable once in a while, or change the housing as needed? Do you know how to fix a flat tire? Can you change your own brake pads?

Why not volunter at a bicycle coop, and learn to fix your bicycle al by yourself?
https://www.bikecollectives.org/wiki...ations#Florida
Or take repair classes at a shop somewhere?

Chains do not last 15,000 miles, they might last 1,500 miles, maybe.
If you fail to maintain your equiptment, your equiptment will fail you.

Do not ride across the Darien Gap go around some how.

gauvins

I currently rotate two chains. They have 5500+kms and show approximately .25% stretch. So if I were to run the drivetrain to, say, 1.5% stretch, that would translate into 33000kms or 20,000 miles.

staehpj1

I have found that chains don't wear at a steady rate over their life. In my experience they show slow wear for most of their life and then go quickly once they get to a certain point. So it takes a chain most of it's life to reach 12-1/16" for 12 links and then gets to 12-1/8" in a small fraction of that time. As a result I don't really think you can project how long a chain will last by projecting the same rate of wear into the remainder of it's life.

gauvins

Plausible : the Wipperman expriment showed convex wear rates. On the other hand, ANSI chain manual describes a linear process. One entry in stackexchange suggests a fairly linear process.

Maybe someone will post extensive data. I'll probably not, because I am actually planning to change chains for a fresh set before they stretch above the .75% mark, i.e. before there is significant damage to the cassette.

djb

Stae, it's really good that you bring this up. I believe that I have seen this happen also, and to be honest, this is why I tend to err much more on the side of caution and when I see a chain getting to the 1/16 point, I am concerned that I will forget to check it more regularly and to avoid unneeded wear on the drivetrain, I'll just change the chain.
I figure it's not worth eeking out every last bit if inattention could mean more wear on teeth front and back---basically the traditional view t of why to change chains.

Re your observation, I certainly don't have clear evidence from taking time notes, but I think I've noticed this in the past and been surprised, especially from thinking it would be linear and projecting x kilometres into the future.

I wonder if others have noticed this and if anyone has actually kept notes.

Here's my theory, it's like trying to loosen let's say a pole stuck in the ground. You push and pull on it side to side, for a long time it doesn't loosen. Then you get a little play and it allows you to put more force pushing and pulling, the space widens and as it gets wider you cab fiorce it more and more.

Chain wear won't be the same, but I figure as the bits wear inside, it allows more grit to gather, which does a faster "sanding down" effect, which widens the space, more stuff gets in, etc.

This touches on why I like a thinner chain lube, as I feel it flushes out particulates when I apply it, which I see on my rag when I pass the rag under the chain after I do the one drop per joined section, I also always "turn" the rollers a bit to work the lube in, and to wipe off the extra.
Goes without saying t to wipe chain before applying, or you just transport all the crap down into the innards, just common sense.

Anyway, that's my theory supporting your observation.

Again, very good to bring it up.