Broken Nishki Frame
#26
Full Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Upper third of the central USA
Posts: 492
Bikes: N+1
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked 652 Times
in
319 Posts
Given that Nishiki these days is a label for low to low-end hybrids, "mtbs" and kid bikes you'd not want anything they could provide you with even if they did replace this under warranty, so do not feel too bad. As the original purchaser, you've had almost 35+ years of riding this bike, that's pretty good.
FWIW, that "sudden" failure probably started with a crack some time ago which slowly spread over many rides until it reached the point where one more bump caused it to continue around the tube in what looked like a sudden failure, but what was in reality probably years in the making. It's a good reminder that those of riding old bikes would be well advised to clean them well and inspect them closely at least once per year.
FWIW, that "sudden" failure probably started with a crack some time ago which slowly spread over many rides until it reached the point where one more bump caused it to continue around the tube in what looked like a sudden failure, but what was in reality probably years in the making. It's a good reminder that those of riding old bikes would be well advised to clean them well and inspect them closely at least once per year.
Likes For JulesCW:
#28
Clark W. Griswold
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 13,523
Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4357 Post(s)
Liked 3,994 Times
in
2,665 Posts
Yeah no warranty on that one, Nishiki, is no longer in existence aside from as a name on some crap at Dick's. Any quality relating to Nishiki is long gone, now it is deluxe Wal-Mart bike.
The fact you have had it this long and no frame issues is great. If you loved the bike you could possibly get it repaired or just have someone build a new one. Plenty of awesome frame builders in the U.S. who do lugged frames and can make some really special stuff that will fit you like a glove and have whatever you want or need on it.
The fact you have had it this long and no frame issues is great. If you loved the bike you could possibly get it repaired or just have someone build a new one. Plenty of awesome frame builders in the U.S. who do lugged frames and can make some really special stuff that will fit you like a glove and have whatever you want or need on it.
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,906
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4806 Post(s)
Liked 3,929 Times
in
2,554 Posts
That is exactly why I like steel frames so much - the failure mode. The bike gave you real warning. You didn't heed it. (Yes, you looked but had you looked knowing the bike was trying to tell you something, you would have found the crack, which as others above have said, has probably been showing quite a while. Granted, we don't all check our DT undersides very often.) Then, when it did break, the rest of the frame did its best to keep the show together.
I would guess that an aluminum frame would more likely to break the top tube (or top tube/head tube weld) also and I would not expect a CF frame to remain in one piece. Ti I just don't know. I am hoping my ti bikes are so overbuilt I'll never face this.
I've fully broken steel chainstays, seat tube and a fork blade and ridden all of those home or to the race start/finish. Cracked chainstays (both) and fork blades (also both and it was scary). No crashes to date to cracked or broken steel or ti forks/frames. Had my life changed big time by an aluminum fork crown failure.
I'm getting more picky about what I will ride but I will also probably keep riding the bikes I love, maybe to failure. I will also (I hope) stick to materials that fail "nicely".
And the joke - the quick fix. Whittle a dowel to fit. Shove it in, hammer the halves together, do a sexy duct tape wrap and call it good! (Many years ago, racers drove dowels into the steerers of bikes they did not trust. There's precedent. That probably saved a few hard crashes.)
Ben
I would guess that an aluminum frame would more likely to break the top tube (or top tube/head tube weld) also and I would not expect a CF frame to remain in one piece. Ti I just don't know. I am hoping my ti bikes are so overbuilt I'll never face this.
I've fully broken steel chainstays, seat tube and a fork blade and ridden all of those home or to the race start/finish. Cracked chainstays (both) and fork blades (also both and it was scary). No crashes to date to cracked or broken steel or ti forks/frames. Had my life changed big time by an aluminum fork crown failure.
I'm getting more picky about what I will ride but I will also probably keep riding the bikes I love, maybe to failure. I will also (I hope) stick to materials that fail "nicely".
And the joke - the quick fix. Whittle a dowel to fit. Shove it in, hammer the halves together, do a sexy duct tape wrap and call it good! (Many years ago, racers drove dowels into the steerers of bikes they did not trust. There's precedent. That probably saved a few hard crashes.)
Ben
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,374
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2483 Post(s)
Liked 2,955 Times
in
1,678 Posts
That is exactly why I like steel frames so much - the failure mode. The bike gave you real warning. You didn't heed it. (Yes, you looked but had you looked knowing the bike was trying to tell you something, you would have found the crack, which as others above have said, has probably been showing quite a while. Granted, we don't all check our DT undersides very often.) Then, when it did break, the rest of the frame did its best to keep the show together.
I would guess that an aluminum frame would more likely to break the top tube (or top tube/head tube weld) also and I would not expect a CF frame to remain in one piece. Ti I just don't know. I am hoping my ti bikes are so overbuilt I'll never face this.
I've fully broken steel chainstays, seat tube and a fork blade and ridden all of those home or to the race start/finish. Cracked chainstays (both) and fork blades (also both and it was scary). No crashes to date to cracked or broken steel or ti forks/frames. Had my life changed big time by an aluminum fork crown failure.
I would guess that an aluminum frame would more likely to break the top tube (or top tube/head tube weld) also and I would not expect a CF frame to remain in one piece. Ti I just don't know. I am hoping my ti bikes are so overbuilt I'll never face this.
I've fully broken steel chainstays, seat tube and a fork blade and ridden all of those home or to the race start/finish. Cracked chainstays (both) and fork blades (also both and it was scary). No crashes to date to cracked or broken steel or ti forks/frames. Had my life changed big time by an aluminum fork crown failure.
As cyccommute and others have noted repeatedly in previous threads on the topic, steel is harder and more brittle than aluminum and is thus more likely to fail suddenly than aluminum.
For those who haven't seen it before, here's a report of the results of fatigue tests of high-end aluminum, steel, titanium, and carbon fiber frames, conducted in 1997. Two aluminum frames and one carbon fiber frame performed best in the tests, with no failures. To the surprise of the testers, all of the steel and titanium frames failed the fatigue tests. (Interestingly, one of the steel frames was a Nishiki, which failed at the seat tube/down tube/bottom bracket junction.)
12 High-End Frames in the EFBe Fatigue Test
Last edited by Trakhak; 02-08-21 at 04:10 AM.
Likes For Trakhak:
#31
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
That is exactly why I like steel frames so much - the failure mode. The bike gave you real warning. You didn't heed it. (Yes, you looked but had you looked knowing the bike was trying to tell you something, you would have found the crack, which as others above have said, has probably been showing quite a while. Granted, we don't all check our DT undersides very often.) Then, when it did break, the rest of the frame did its best to keep the show together.
I would guess that an aluminum frame would more likely to break the top tube (or top tube/head tube weld) also and I would not expect a CF frame to remain in one piece. Ti I just don't know. I am hoping my ti bikes are so overbuilt I'll never face this.
I've fully broken steel chainstays, seat tube and a fork blade and ridden all of those home or to the race start/finish. Cracked chainstays (both) and fork blades (also both and it was scary). No crashes to date to cracked or broken steel or ti forks/frames. Had my life changed big time by an aluminum fork crown failure.
I'm getting more picky about what I will ride but I will also probably keep riding the bikes I love, maybe to failure. I will also (I hope) stick to materials that fail "nicely".
And the joke - the quick fix. Whittle a dowel to fit. Shove it in, hammer the halves together, do a sexy duct tape wrap and call it good! (Many years ago, racers drove dowels into the steerers of bikes they did not trust. There's precedent. That probably saved a few hard crashes.)
Ben
I would guess that an aluminum frame would more likely to break the top tube (or top tube/head tube weld) also and I would not expect a CF frame to remain in one piece. Ti I just don't know. I am hoping my ti bikes are so overbuilt I'll never face this.
I've fully broken steel chainstays, seat tube and a fork blade and ridden all of those home or to the race start/finish. Cracked chainstays (both) and fork blades (also both and it was scary). No crashes to date to cracked or broken steel or ti forks/frames. Had my life changed big time by an aluminum fork crown failure.
I'm getting more picky about what I will ride but I will also probably keep riding the bikes I love, maybe to failure. I will also (I hope) stick to materials that fail "nicely".
And the joke - the quick fix. Whittle a dowel to fit. Shove it in, hammer the halves together, do a sexy duct tape wrap and call it good! (Many years ago, racers drove dowels into the steerers of bikes they did not trust. There's precedent. That probably saved a few hard crashes.)
Ben
#32
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Glad you’re ok, that type of failure at speed would have been very dangerous if not fatal. That said, it doesn’t look repairable without a fair amount of money and repaint after a full tube replacement. Was the bike ever in a front end collision? The location high up near the head lug suggests a stress there that was unseen or rust under a cable guide or shifter clamp.
what size us the frame?
what size us the frame?
#33
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
That is exactly why I like steel frames so much - the failure mode. The bike gave you real warning. You didn't heed it. (Yes, you looked but had you looked knowing the bike was trying to tell you something, you would have found the crack, which as others above have said, has probably been showing quite a while. Granted, we don't all check our DT undersides very often.) Then, when it did break, the rest of the frame did its best to keep the show together.
I would guess that an aluminum frame would more likely to break the top tube (or top tube/head tube weld) also and I would not expect a CF frame to remain in one piece. Ti I just don't know. I am hoping my ti bikes are so overbuilt I'll never face this.
I've fully broken steel chainstays, seat tube and a fork blade and ridden all of those home or to the race start/finish. Cracked chainstays (both) and fork blades (also both and it was scary). No crashes to date to cracked or broken steel or ti forks/frames. Had my life changed big time by an aluminum fork crown failure.
I'm getting more picky about what I will ride but I will also probably keep riding the bikes I love, maybe to failure. I will also (I hope) stick to materials that fail "nicely".
And the joke - the quick fix. Whittle a dowel to fit. Shove it in, hammer the halves together, do a sexy duct tape wrap and call it good! (Many years ago, racers drove dowels into the steerers of bikes they did not trust. There's precedent. That probably saved a few hard crashes.)
Ben
I would guess that an aluminum frame would more likely to break the top tube (or top tube/head tube weld) also and I would not expect a CF frame to remain in one piece. Ti I just don't know. I am hoping my ti bikes are so overbuilt I'll never face this.
I've fully broken steel chainstays, seat tube and a fork blade and ridden all of those home or to the race start/finish. Cracked chainstays (both) and fork blades (also both and it was scary). No crashes to date to cracked or broken steel or ti forks/frames. Had my life changed big time by an aluminum fork crown failure.
I'm getting more picky about what I will ride but I will also probably keep riding the bikes I love, maybe to failure. I will also (I hope) stick to materials that fail "nicely".
And the joke - the quick fix. Whittle a dowel to fit. Shove it in, hammer the halves together, do a sexy duct tape wrap and call it good! (Many years ago, racers drove dowels into the steerers of bikes they did not trust. There's precedent. That probably saved a few hard crashes.)
Ben
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Medford MA
Posts: 2,089
Bikes: Ron Cooper touring, 1959 Jack Taylor 650b ladyback touring tandem, Vitus 979, Joe Bell painted Claud Butler Dalesman, Colin Laing curved tube tandem, heavily-Dilberted 1982 Trek 6xx, René Herse tandem
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 964 Post(s)
Liked 1,451 Times
in
723 Posts
Did it creak at all? Give you any warning? All my bikes creak in some way, and that's not a problem. It's when the creak begins to sound different that there is a problem!
__________________
Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
Likes For brian3069:
#36
vintage rider
Didn't Nishiki use a few different manufacturers over the years?
I still have my 1977 International,
I believe it was still made by Kawamura, but I believe my 1980 was made by Giant.
I still own both bikes but the 77 International has been apart in the attic for years now.
I've seen a few broken frames over the years but very few were broken at the upper DT lug like that. .
I still have my 1977 International,
I believe it was still made by Kawamura, but I believe my 1980 was made by Giant.
I still own both bikes but the 77 International has been apart in the attic for years now.
I've seen a few broken frames over the years but very few were broken at the upper DT lug like that. .
Last edited by 27inch; 02-09-21 at 12:52 AM.
#37
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Warranties can vary depending on the market and era. That's a USA market serial number from 1982, so the bicycle is either a 1982 or 1983 model. While I don't have a 1982 USA catalogue, both 1981 and 1983 USA catalogues indicate 25 year warranties. Consequently, the warranty period was almost certainly the same for 1982 and the frame is well beyond it's warranty period.
#38
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Didn't Nishiki use a few different manufacturers over the years?
I still have my 1977 International,
I believe it was still made by Kawamura, but I believe my 1980 was made by Giant.
I still own both bikes but the 77 International has been apart in the attic for years now.
I've seen a few broken frames over the years but very few were broken at the upper DT lug like that. .
I still have my 1977 International,
I believe it was still made by Kawamura, but I believe my 1980 was made by Giant.
I still own both bikes but the 77 International has been apart in the attic for years now.
I've seen a few broken frames over the years but very few were broken at the upper DT lug like that. .
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,223
Mentioned: 654 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4722 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3,036 Times
in
1,874 Posts
Didn't Nishiki use a few different manufacturers over the years?
I still have my 1977 International,
I believe it was still made by Kawamura, but I believe my 1980 was made by Giant.
I still own both bikes but the 77 International has been apart in the attic for years now.
I've seen a few broken frames over the years but very few were broken at the upper DT lug like that. .
I still have my 1977 International,
I believe it was still made by Kawamura, but I believe my 1980 was made by Giant.
I still own both bikes but the 77 International has been apart in the attic for years now.
I've seen a few broken frames over the years but very few were broken at the upper DT lug like that. .
The subject frame failure is typical of fatigue. Generally, a proper designed and manufactured steel frame will not fail in fatigue, as the stresses are not sufficiently high to exceeded the endurance/fatigue limit. In this case, the failure is right around the transition from the butt to the thinner, central section of the tube. This is a stress riser point. Also, the area is subjected to heat from brazing both the head lug and the shift lever boss. Excessive heat can lower the fatigue limit to the point where steel frames can fatigue from normal stress. I suspect the root cause is excessive brazing temperature. Most of the frame fatigue failures I've seen have occurred at stress risers within a few inches of a brazing point.
Likes For T-Mar:
#41
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Looks like a classic "Can opener" failure. The point on the bottom lug was sharp and over the years of braking, it flexed into downtube and started a crack. Then the crack propagated until the whole tube failed. There was a great write up on this in one of the old Rivendell Readers.
Likes For smkpool:
#42
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
It's possible that it had a "new" creak of type within a mile or so of the break. If so, I probably missed it, due to road noise/traffic sounds etc.
#43
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Nishiki was essentially a marketing brand, with the name being owned by various companies, depending on the country and era. The brand owner would have the frames contract manufactured. (the one known exception being Japan, where Kawamura owned the name). In the USA, the brand was originally owned by West Coast Cycle Supply, who used Kawamura as their main source but with Katakura supplying the high end models. After the boom, Giant was used to supply the entry level models. We've also seen C&V, USA market Nishiki from Araya, Dodsun, Fairly and a few unidentified sources. In the mid-1980s, in attempt to gain more penetration in the high end market, there were even a few models sourced from Italy.
The subject frame failure is typical of fatigue. Generally, a proper designed and manufactured steel frame will not fail in fatigue, as the stresses are not sufficiently high to exceeded the endurance/fatigue limit. In this case, the failure is right around the transition from the butt to the thinner, central section of the tube. This is a stress riser point. Also, the area is subjected to heat from brazing both the head lug and the shift lever boss. Excessive heat can lower the fatigue limit to the point where steel frames can fatigue from normal stress. I suspect the root cause is excessive brazing temperature. Most of the frame fatigue failures I've seen have occurred at stress risers within a few inches of a brazing point.
The subject frame failure is typical of fatigue. Generally, a proper designed and manufactured steel frame will not fail in fatigue, as the stresses are not sufficiently high to exceeded the endurance/fatigue limit. In this case, the failure is right around the transition from the butt to the thinner, central section of the tube. This is a stress riser point. Also, the area is subjected to heat from brazing both the head lug and the shift lever boss. Excessive heat can lower the fatigue limit to the point where steel frames can fatigue from normal stress. I suspect the root cause is excessive brazing temperature. Most of the frame fatigue failures I've seen have occurred at stress risers within a few inches of a brazing point.
Likes For smkpool:
#44
RUSA #3100
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Oregon City
Posts: 836
Bikes: Yes
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 237 Post(s)
Liked 505 Times
in
181 Posts
"Lifetime warranty" actually means the life of the company, not the actual product they build. I had a lifetime warranty on a product from a company whose business model included going bankrupt every 5 years. My "lifetime warranty" was only good for a couple of years!
__________________
https://utahrandonneur.wordpress.com
https://utahrandonneur.wordpress.com
#45
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,639
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1299 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4682 Post(s)
Liked 5,800 Times
in
2,284 Posts
I'm surprised no one's already told you it'll buff out...
Vintage steel frames are like he old Timex watches, they take a licking and keeping on ticking.
Vintage steel frames are like he old Timex watches, they take a licking and keeping on ticking.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,394
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1562 Post(s)
Liked 1,734 Times
in
974 Posts
For those who haven't seen it before, here's a report of the results of fatigue tests of high-end aluminum, steel, titanium, and carbon fiber frames, conducted in 1997. Two aluminum frames and one carbon fiber frame performed best in the tests, with no failures. To the surprise of the testers, all of the steel and titanium frames failed the fatigue tests. (Interestingly, one of the steel frames was a Nishiki, which failed at the seat tube/down tube/bottom bracket junction.)
12 High-End Frames in the EFBe Fatigue Test
12 High-End Frames in the EFBe Fatigue Test